Mercurial

Yo no estoy de acuerdo con que Hispanic sea insultante. En primer lugar, en ingles el femenino de Latin seguiria siendo Latin. Ahora, si lo dices en español, "Latina," también puedes decir "hispana." Hispanic se refiere a los países de habla hispana, o sea, español, mientras que un país latino puede ser, por ejemplo, Italia, al igual que Brasil, o Francia, sin que ninguno de ellos tengan la misma lengua que cualquiera de los países hispanos. En USA se sorprenderían si les dijéramos que los franceses también son latinos, pero así son las cosas y el español se habla porque viene de Hispania.

Anita: Yo no me refiero a los orígenes lingüísticos del término, sino a los políticos, y lo que ello conllevan. Es definitivamente una negación de la identidad latinoamericana, en un esfuerzo demasiado obvio por enmascarar la diversidad étnica y racial que conforma la enorme población del subcontinente.
Y si es insultante. A ti no te molesta, porque en tus antecedentes la cultura hispánica es inmensa y maravillosa. En mi historia, sin embargo, la Conquista y Colonización española significaron la muerte de 150 millones de indígenas, la destrucción de sus culturas, y el saqueo de todas las riquezas culturales y recursos posibles.
Ve y dile a un judío "nazi", a ver que te responde.

Thanks for the foundation beneath the term hispanic and clarifying the preference. Can you tell me, what is the foundation of the term Latino?

(No, America is the whole continent, not just the country north of Mexico).

This is untrue. There is a continent named North America, and a continent named South America. There is no continent named America. Another thought to consider, if the Republica Federativa do BRASIL can be properly called Brazil, and the Ustados Unidos MEXICANOS can be properly called Mexico why can't the United States of AMERICA be properly called America? It's the excepted short form of the name and to say it shouldn't be used is silly.

You are wrong. The continent is called America. That the USA was called like that, and thereon everybody north of the Rio Grande started referring to that country as America is only an indicator of how much its hegemony and unbridled power has grated all the rest of Americans that have been born and lived with the knowledge that their powerful neighbor to the north has arrogated to itself the whole continent.

Go check your history, especially about Amerigo Vespucci, and the naming of the continent in his honor. If in doubt, check the National Geographic webpage about the map that started this all.

North America is a sub-continent.

You need to take some geography classes and worry less about history. People adapt, knowledge expands, when they learned North and South America were different landmasses the names were changed. Ask a reputable geography professor if North America is a subcontinent, or part of a single American continent and you'll be laughed at.North America is no more a subcontinent than Europe.

But, um, isn't "Latino" even worse in that respect? After all, it's trying to identify Spain with the Roman Empire (of which Spain was one of the earliest constituents), which has even more tenuous connections to modern-people-with-a-mixture-of-Spanish-Native-American-and-Other-heritage? Actually, even *worse* than that, because the Latins were not just any Romans, but those from Latium, the immediate vicinity of Rome itself. Or does "Latino" have some other origin?

Actually, we Estadounidenses are in a country without a name :-) America refers to the entire western hemisphere. Anyone born here may say "Soy americano/a" and be absolutely correct. So, when you travel abroad in the Western Hemisphere and say "I'm an American" you aren't really saying much. I'm from the United States is likewise potentially confusing because as Ruprecht points out, there's the United States of Mexico as well. North American contains Mexico, Canada, and the U.S., so no help there. Which is why while abroad in Latinoamerica, I used the term 'soy gringo' with a grin and a laugh.

While most everyone in the world will understand if you say "I'm American" to mean the U.S.A., there is a whole cultural, and yes, geographical heritage which this ignores. Which, when you look at it, is really quite American as well.

Maybe they know us not by where we say we're from, but how high up our noses go when we say it.

Camilo, thanks for a nice blog entry. It's good to find a use for my BA in Spanish Lit. :-)

Oh, and the way it was taught in college was that Latino-americano includes not only Hispanos/as but also the Portugueses y Franceses as far as the lineage goes. So Latinos could hail from one of those three linguistic/cultural backgrounds in the Western Hemisphere, whereas Hispanos would refer to the Hispanohablantes alone (which make up the majority of the Latinoamericanos.)

I am still looking for an explanation as to what it is about the genesis of the term Latino/a that makes it more desirable than hispanic. I get why you don't like hispanic, but why do you like Latino/a?

Thank you for your comment on my site's post in which I referred to a woman as being Hispanic. I understand that there are a variety of views on how to properly identify specific groups of people, and in my part of California the politically correct term is "Hispanic". I was not attempting to be offensive, and in fact, I don't usually make ethnic or racial distinctions, but I thought it would provide a better description of this woman's particular style of beauty.

I've never really thought that my ancestory was as important to who I am as my actions are. I feel no guilt for things people who look like me did in the past, nor am I moved to agree with people just because we have similar features or ancestory. I'm an individual, and tend to deal with others that way too.

I have a theory that whenever a term becomes accepted by those considered to be predjudiced against a specific group, then that group begins to find the term objectional. Colored becomes Negro becomes Black becomes African-American becomes Person of Color. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Honestly, I meant no offense, and would be happy to call groups of people anything that they wish to be called. Unfortunately, groups of people do not always agree on what they wish to be called, or even what group they belong to.

All I know is that I'm a brown-haired, pale-skinned guy thats family came to California from Europe by way of Texas and my parents named me Ken. Beyond that, I'll let you decide how to describe or classify me. It won't change who I am.

Being Brasilian (and not born speaking spanish) i've found myself thinking about this issue often.

It was not until recently that i discussed it with a spanish speaking person who filled me in on the cultural content of both terms.

It made it a little more confusing - what should i mark on my census questionaire?

BTW, born and raised in Brazil it was not until i moved to NY that i found out i was not 'white'.
It came as a shock to me.

I was taught in school that there exists just one continent named America. My boyfriend, who is from Mexico, still defends that he is American. Maybe the Spaniards did horrible things in the 15th century, but no one can deny that you speak Spanish because it came from Hispania, Camilo. You don't speak Italian, which is a Latin language as well.
Forget about politics, we are talking about history and origins. Why am I not white in this country while I am in my own country? I'm hispanic according to the race distinction here, but never Latin....

I don't like "Hispanic" when I moved here from Colombia, Mostly they called me "Hispanic" I did not understand what does it means by that? I preferly am Latino or Colombian. Of course mexican and colombian are not same the culture. I hate that most of people called me spanish, or hispanic. they got wrong picture that they thought we are all the same culture and speak spanish language. Of course not! It is so stereotyped.

As a Latino, specifically Peruano, i think it is truly important to focus primarily on the social implications of using the term "hispanic" or "Latino". For many politicized people of color the term hispanic is offensive because of the manner in which it was thrust upon a group of people. It also stresses a focus on what is "Spanish", european, white. For me the term hispanic is just another form of denying the indigenous roots and history of many Latinos. Regardless of the history of the term Latino, it has now been incorporated and reclaimed by many progressive socially conscious people, much like the term "queer" for GLBTQ communities. I think it is important for those who are not sure, that using the term hispanic can be extremely offensive to many. I know for myself, being called hispanic is equivalent to not recognizing my indigenous identity.

I'm European. Here, the word "latin" is heard in a different way from what is in USA. It is the original signification : it is relative to anybody coming from a country where the language is coming from latin language. So, latin countries are firstly : Italy, Spain, France, Portugal and Romania... and later the former colonies of these countries. "latin" doesn't means from south or central america, like a lot of american people thinks... Nor describes a race... It is a linguistic group of countries who share cultural roots in roman empire.

As "germanic" means from a country where is speaken language coming from old german. So, "germanic" countries are : Germany, Netherlands, England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, etc... and their former colonies : Australia, USA, part of Canada, New Zealand, etc...

The word "latino" is more confusing, because in spanish "latino" means "latin"(in the meaning above), but in english it have being used to speak about south and central americans...
"latin america" is a name given because the languages there are from latin while in USA, it comes from germanic. In spanish a person who is from latin america is said a latino-american. To speak shorter, this word was reduced to "latino", and then it was used like this in english.

When the confusion become complete, american people start to name people from latin-america as "latins". "latin music", "latin skin color" and so on... to with "latino-american"
For us, who live in Latin Europe, it is like having being spoiled of our own designation. We are latins but we cannot say it. Espacially in America, because some people would answere to us : "you cannot being latin, latins are not europeans, they are not white..."
IT IS A NON-SENCE !!! It would be the same if we said to an englishman that he cannot be anglo because he is not from united states !!!

I'm African-American/Black/Negro and the list continues. I'm glad I ran into this webpage because I always correct my co-workers (at a police dept where Hispanic describes anyone with Black hair and yellow skin) when they say hispanic referring to Mexicans/Puerto Ricans/Columbians/Panamanians as one group. I always thought it was disrepectful, but then again what do I know for sure. Hispanic always meant to me...coming from Spain. One of my great friends is from Guatamala. She's wants to be known as a Guatamalan. I see nothing wrong with that, but we live in a place where if it's possible to group us in order to help us forget who we really are, then the political powers that be will do it.

I'm African-American..I've never been to Africa, might not ever go, but I understand the reasoning behind it, but I don't agree. There are many different cultures in the latino/hispanic world, just like the african american/black world. I think we need to hold people accountable for understanding and appreciating each for it's individuality. If we can be clumped together...that just makes it easier to deal with us. B.S in my opinion. Am I wrong????

Actually I'm not spanish but french. I know that american people get surprised when we say we are latins, but it is like that. Physicly we are a very diverse people, with brown haired poeple, blond haired, black people, north african, asians but we are all latins because we speak a latin language (american say "romance" I think, right ?) and share a culture that have its origin in the roman civilisation.

I think that the american mentality that consist to class people in "etnic/racial" groups, just because they have their ancestors from one or another place is very strange...

every people in the world is made from diverses origins that melt in one unique culture...

For exemple "latinos" in USA are coming from a lot of diverse origins; Spanish, native indians, african, asian. But each one of those people is not a race and is also made of different composants, for exemple spaniards are a melting pot of celtic, romans, iberians, gipsys, arabics, germanics, etc... but they define themselve not with the origins of their ancesters but with the culture they have now...
We could follow and see that romans where not a race but a diverse group of peole that come from differents groups...and so on...

So, why not define yourself as american, and don't care of your look or your ancestor's identity... If you have an US culture you are American it is so much simple...

I heard some "hispanics" saying they were latins but when I asked to them what language they spoke they said "english"... If one doesn't even speak spanish or any latin language how could be describe himself as latin...

If would be the same if I said that I consider myself as a fish just because fishes were ancesters of human being 500 millions years ago...

Hispanic as it is used in USA as a race is completly confusing. Hispanic just means to be related to culture and language of spain. from closely or more farther realation.

But beacause in USA most hispanic emigrants are in fact a mix of spanish, native indians or black; US sensus considered "hispanic" a a physical description of people. A big part of the population of latin america is completly "white", but also completly "hispanic", like people from spain.

Because the US meaning of that word was changed to a race in the medias, and because US medias lead the world, a lot of white hispanics don't consider themselves as "hispanic"... It is a non-sence. while some pure "native indians" of Mexico or Peru are considered as the typical hispanic... It is like considering a Jamaican as the typical model of "anglo-saxon" and not considering the british as it.

latins : I believe it is just a cultural and linguistic group that are made up of Portughese, Spaniards, French, Italians, Romanians, and their diaspora. The other cultural-linguistic groups include Germanic, Slavic, Hellenic and Celtic.

It is definately not racial for you can see Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean Latins. Racially, Latins are white, just like Germans, Slavs, Hellenes, and Celts.

Since Latins share a common historical, cultural, and linguistic heritage, it probably has fostered a sense of psuedo-racial identity (?), especially when challenged by nordicism. We have a sense of brotherhood, like the Celts, Hellenes, and Slavs have, and as the Germanic peoples used to have, before being brainwashed.

You're right, Casanova. The typical American believes that anyone south of the border is Latin. Typical brainwashing. The French, Italians, and Romanians are excluded from this "Latin" group, while genetically white Portughese, Spaniards, and Latin Americans are encourged to believe that they are not white by American Juden.

To "hispanics/hispanos" : if you reject the term "hispanic" because it is a reference to European heritage(especially with Spain) , you schould also reject the term "latino".

"Latino" in spanish means latin. Latin means from countries of languages coming from latin: Italy (first generation), France, Spain, Portugal, Romania (second generation), Québec, Central america, south america (third generation)
If you define yourself as "latino/latina", it would mean that you feel as close to Italy, France, Portugal or Quebec than to Spain !!
Is it really the way you feel ?!

"Latino" could also being a contraction for "latinoamerica". In USA it is in this meaning that it is mostly used. But even in this case if you want to relate yourself to the latinoamerican identity you should reject the adjective "latino/latina" and choose "latinoamericano/latinoamericana"

If you considere that your identity is more related to the south and central american identity than to european ones say "I'm americano", if your identity is more related to Europe you can say "I'm latino", and if you think that your identity is made with both latin and american identity you can say "I'm latinoamericano"

latinoamericano = latino (relation to south europe cultures) + americano (relation to native american cultures)

Anyway, "latinoamericano" or "latino" is completly unapropriate to describe only the spanish speakers of America because it also include Portuguese and French speakers.

Camillo,

"Latino" doesn't conote nothing about native american culture !!!! Only Europeans ones...

"Latino" means "latin"... Latin is a direct reference to France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Romania. The people there are the latins (latinos in spanish / Latini in Italian)

spanish speaking countries of america are "latin/latinos" only because they are also "hispanic". Lo siento, eres "latino" porque eres "hispano"...

latin/Latin is much less precise than hispanic...

The american sencus and medias are ingnorant when they use these words as synonyms !

I am sorry to say, but whatever you consider your selves Latino, Spanish, or Hispanic you first are Indian, second African (West Africa) third Spaniard and fourth Asian. Stop denying your culture because you are not white. I do care how white your skin may be, because you know what my skin is just as white as the next white person and hair as fine as anyone white and I am considered to be African American (black). To tell you the truth you heritage is 80% of black origin like music, food, clothing, dance art and medicine. Bomba is an West African word which now is la bomba, which Mexican consider an African folk tale. Look it up if you think I am lying. You guys just adopted the Spanish language from the Spanish because you are mostly black and indian. The music you listen to is 80% African, 10% Indian and 10% from the Spaniards. When you go to Spain tell me the similarities between you two. Non! Very different! They are the real Spanish (español)! When black were sent to the Spanish colonies they came speaking their own language and knew how to speak Spanish while being on the slave boat better than the Indians. The Spaniards mixed with the African women and the Indians mixed with the blacks so their children would be born free because they were slaves too. Look up your history before you go claiming something you are not. Us as Afro-Americans may not know or own language but we know our African music an dances we see it. Example=salsa. My point is if you want to consider as white we should too because are also mixed and more white than you are because of white ancestors. A black person can tell you when you come up to them and say "I am black but my great grandmother is French (white). Can you? You so called Hispanics are just as black as us and even darker. My boyfriend is PR Puerto Rican from PR with African features and hair is nappy and skin way darker than mine and is proud of the African heritage he has in him. He give praise to his Indian and African people! Not España the people who enslaved his people! If it wasn't for blacks you Hispanics would not be who you are today (Beautiful people of color and mixture).

Eduardo you are ignorant because they people were too indeed Indians with the English and Spaniards took over the countires we now live in.

Of course a lot of the people in latin america are descent of native american (PS : not idians : indians are the people from india, not from america) and from black people (especially in central america).

But not all of them. Go in Argentina ; almost 95% of the population is white, it is more white than any contry such as USA, Germany, France or even Spain. In Brazil and Uruguay, the majority of the population is white too.

Anyway, "hispanic" doen't mean that the people is coming from Spain, but it means that those people have a CULTURAL link to Spain (especially the language).
It is the same for "latin/latino", it is a LINGUISTIC and cultural reference to romance languages, not necessary a genetic or racial origin in south european countries.

Argentina, more whites than France, Germany or Spain?

Of course, and we forget all the indians and blacks living there. But then again, we have in Spain, Germany and France the very strong influence of North Africa.
What else? Compulsory DNA testing for everyone, so we can decide this once and for all?
The issue is not about race, but about culture.
Again, from the top.

of course there is more white people in argentina than in france or germany, even than spain.

In europe, like in USA, the population is very diverse, with strong minorities.

In germany the turquish minorities.
In France the blacks and north africans ( muslims) are more around 15% of population.
In spain a big african comunity too.

I've been to Argentina, I've never seen a black man there...

And after checking the CIA Factbook, it is apparent that what fabb says might indeed be the case, if we go as far as to say that people from Spanish descent are white, whcih would ignore the heavy mediterranean component.
Also, there is the fact that even though the native element was heavily supresed in Argentina, it nevertheless exists. So, Argentina is not "white", but only fails to acknowledge all her other ethnic influences.

Hello Confused Kid,

I've come to realize that there are two points to this topic of Latino vs Hispanic.

It's like an iceburg, we see the top but don't show the underlying foundations.

We speak, voice our opinions and act Latino or Hispanic, but we don't walk the talk. We accept both formats when ever it benefits us.

Ask Christina Aguilera if she is Latina or Hispanic. You'll be surprised what her answer is.

Is this discussion still going on? There is are endless ramifications, but some historical, linguistic facts pre-1980 can be established going back to the Roman empire.

Neither Hispanic or Latino has ever bothered me. In english, I tell people I am hispanic y en español soy latino.

Neither Hispanic or Latino has ever bothered me. In english, I tell people I am hispanic y en español soy latino.

He encontrado en mi experiencia muchas terminos para describir los inmigrantes y sus descendientes de paises hispanohablantes (y donde se habla portugues, esp. Brazil)-- "Latinos," "Hispanics," incluso "Latins." But my European friends and acquaintances from Romance language-speaking countries (France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania, parts of Switzerland and Luxembourg) tend to prefer the "Latin" designation in particular, while people from Hispanophone countries in the Western Hemisphere opt for "Hispanic" or "Latino." The latter seems to be gaining preference b/c it also encompasses people from Lusophone (Portuguese-speaking) countries like Brazil, Portugal, Angola, and Mozambique.

As for the history of the words-- I guess this is a classic example of how a term that means one thing at one time, in the classic meandering course of history, can designate something much broader later on under different circumstances. IIRC, the word "Latin" itself originally derived from the plain of Latium near the Tiber River in central Italy. The Latin people who dwelled there included the Romans, who conquered and assimilated surrounding tribes before extending outside of Italy. Then Julius Caesar did his conquering-Gaul thing, Augustus Caesar founded the Roman Empire and extended precursors of citizenship to outlying areas, and by the next century folks from Britain to Portugal to Tunisia to Albania to Syria were calling themselves Latin. Though the term generally applied to *language*-- the Greek speakers in the Eastern Roman Empire didn't identify themselves as "Latin" to the same degree, while those who used Latin officially and spoke "Vulgar Latin" (forerunner of French, Italian, Castilian Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, et al.) definitely proclaimed their Latin-ness.

As the Vulgar Latin-speaking Roman successor states assimilated Germans, Arabs, and other later groups, the identity became more inclusive, but as someone mentioned above the "Latin" identity became indicative of a people who shared *language and cultural characteristics* (esp. Romance language, Catholic faith, other special customs), not a fixed ethnic or racial group. Thus when the Spaniards and Portuguese conquered much of the American continent and Caribbean in 1400s-1600s, the indigenous residents, Iberian settlers, and African slaves became considered "Latin" (members of Latin America) as soon as they adopted basic elements of Latin (in this case Iberian-- Spanish and Portuguese) culture.

Then fast-forward to the 1970s, the Nixon Administration in the US wants a comprehensive term for all the immigrants to the US from Spanish-speaking countries, and so they settle on "Latino" I suppose from the Spanish term "Americano(a) Latino(a)." "Hispanic," meanwhile, comes from "Hispania" of course, and "Hispania" (the Roman name for Spain) in turn came from "Hispalis," a Phoenician (Carthaginian-- modern Tunisia) word for rabbits or hares (a lot of 'em hopping on the peninsula, I guess. So from ancient Mediterranean words for a plain in Italy and for hares, to a modern designation for immigrants from Central America—quite a journey, I guess.

En general, yo por mi parte reservo la palabra “Latin” para gente que vienen de paises en el parte sur de Europa al fin de evitar confusion. Pero aun se puede hablar de “Latin culture” o “Latin music” para describir caracteristicas fundamentales de la cultura de paises en la region geografica se llama “Latin America.” Mientras tanto personas que vienen directamente de America Latina a los EEUU, o sus hijos o nietos, en general prefieren la descripcion “Hispanic” o “Latino/a”, aunque hay una pelea muy feroz tocando cual termino se deberia preferir. :) De todos modos parece que la mayoria de mis amigos inclinan a “Latino/a” porque este termino incluye la gente de Brazil y Cape Verde que hablan Portugues, y tambien “Latino” refiere mas directamente a la cultura misma, en lugar de la unidad politica (el pais de España) que establecio el imperio en las Americas. Y tambien “Latino/a” parece mas eufonioso, uno de esas palabras que implica ritmo y musica, una palabra llena de moda en su propio sono y sus associaciones.

I should reaffirm here (on top of what another blogger astutely noted) that the sine qua non of the terms "Hispanic" and "Latino" is that they imply a *cultural* definition, not a racial or ethnic one-- a source of vast confusion for Americans. In the USA, we’re accustomed to thinking in strictly racial/ethnic categories that are fixed and immutable from birth, whereas these are regarded as flexible descriptions among Latinos themselves. From Latinos’ perspective, a person not “born Latino” (i.e., reared in English-speaking Nebraska, for example) can “become Latino” by adopting the culture, while the son of a Colombian immigrant who arrives in the US at a young age, but speaks no Spanish when he grows up, is not considered even remotely Latino.

This has some interesting ramifications for who is considered Latino or Hispanic in the US. Back in college at Duke, I had some acquaintances who were descended from South American immigrants back several generations. Their parents never taught them Spanish and they were initially monolingual English-speakers, despite having very Spanish surnames. But after arriving at college, they became obsessed with learning Spanish because they suffered some embarrassing incidents stemming from their unfamiliarity with the language. They wanted to associate with Hispanic peers (who were from Mexico, Guatemala, Puerto Rico chiefly) and join the Latino student cultural organizations, but were flatly rejected and dismissed when they admitted they couldn’t speak Spanish. They were not considered Latino in the eyes of their Latino peers, no matter what their ancestry, since they weren’t *culturally* Latino, not even proficient in the language.

One poor guy even had the awful experience of having to visit his relatives in IIRC Venezuela with his immediate family, but suffering the shock and mortification of not being able to communicate in Spanish and confessing he knew only English, needing a bilingual cousin to translate for him. This met with some disapproval; that must have been an excruciating experience, and needless to say he became pretty motivated to master Spanish after that. In any case, among Latinos and in Latin America, it’s your linguistic and cultural behavior that give you the “Latino” designation, not your birthplace or ancestry.

Another intriguing effect of all this is on affirmative action programs, which often provide special scholarships and admissions advantages to Hispanic/Latino students. Again, in the US we’re often confused about the meaning of “Latino,” and too many people think that one can be considered Hispanic/Latino based on birthplace or ancestry alone. People with Spanish surnames, born in Latin America or with grandparents from there, are sometimes automatically considered Hispanic. Problem is, many of the administrators of these minority scholarships soon found out that a large cohort of the “Hispanics” getting the scholarships were wealthy third-generation descendants of Latin American immigrants, and they spoke no Spanish—only English. The administrators are now cracking down on this massively (esp. since the last Supreme Court decision), and for anybody to qualify as “Hispanic” or “Latino” for the minority scholarships, they pretty much have to speak fluent Spanish (or Portuguese) in addition to having a family background from Latin America. If you claim to be Hispanic but can’t speak Spanish at the interview (and they always seem to test for this at the interviews), you’ll be embarrassed in front of the committee and laughed out of town (and apparently “blacklisted” as well AFAIK).

My family is of northern European (especially German) ancestry and I grew up speaking only English with a smidgen of German here and there. But I’ve become fluent in Spanish, in part b/c of friends and in part b/c of my career (medicine). (FWIW, if you’re interested in a career in medicine, law, business, or advertising, especially if you’re even considering a move to California, Texas, Florida, or some other places, do yourself a massive favor and learn Spanish fluently. You’ll be burned without it. For medicine at least you can’t even obtain a job in many places w/o being bilingual, and even where it’s not explicitly required the differentials in salaries for bilinguals vs. monolinguals are ridiculously high; knowing Spanish can mean, literally, millions of extra dollars in income over a couple decades.) I’ve been on trains and buses before where I speak Spanish to some visitors from Latin America and salt in some references to soccer (OK, football to any non-USAer out there) or a Telenovela, and they think I’m Argentinian or Chilean or something—without doubt *a Latino*. Go figure. I wasn’t born Latino, but if I’ve effectively become one, I’ll wear the label with pride.

Slow down Wes,
YOU ARE NOT LATINO. Just get that notion out of your head right now, please.
Just becuase you can speak Spanish doesn't make you latino! That is not only offensive, but completely idiotic. Learning German would not make me effectively German, c'mon Wes. The issue of language in my community is not as simple as you make it out to be. Many Latinos, primarily those who are not immigrants or first generation, struggle with feelings of inadequacy surrounding the issue of language. Listen Wes, Spanish is an important part of my culture as a Latino, but it is not limited to language.
You have not effectively become one of us, and wearing such a "label" is evidence of not only your cultural ignorance but of being a cultural appropriator. I appreciate your efforts in learning Spanish, I as a former Spanish teacher, encourage everyone to learn Spanish, but not as a resume booster?!
For further information on this issue I suggest some of the following authors;
Gloria Anzaldua, Cherrie Moraga, Carla Trujillo, Aida Hurtado, Sandra Cisneros, just to name a few.

"YOU ARE NOT LATINO. Just get that notion out of your head right now, please."

Excuse me, but I did not claim to be Latino. What I said in the post was that some people, not aware of my own background, had applied that label to me when I spoke in their native tongue (and showed an appreciation of their culture) with them. The last remark in the post was a sort of playful sarcasm which should have been obvious from the context; I never, ever go around claiming myself as "Latino."

"The issue of language in my community is not as simple as you make it out to be. .. Spanish is an important part of my culture as a Latino, but it is not limited to language."

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying-- the identity consists of an interplay of many factors, an important facet of which is the language but which also entails a whole lot else as well. That's why I mentioned "linguistic and *cultural*" in there, b/c there's a lot more than just language at play in the issue.

"You have not effectively become one of us, and wearing such a "label" is evidence of not only your cultural ignorance but of being a cultural appropriator."

What an arrogant, smirking, condescending tone. The fact that you'd not only infer something like this about my post, but then claim yourself as an arbiter of what defines "inclusion" in the culture is preposterous. The whole point of this thread is that the definition of the term "Latino" is mercurial and quite debated, with lots of people struggling about identity in regard to it, and your heavy-handed ad hominem response shows that you're not nearly as sensitive about these nuances as you claim to be.

"I appreciate your efforts in learning Spanish, I as a former Spanish teacher, encourage everyone to learn Spanish, but not as a resume booster?!"

Oh, a resume booster, huh? I'll tell you why I've invested so much blood, sweat, and tears into mastering my Spanish. It's because as someone who works in the medical field and will be in constant contact with many immigrants for whom Spanish is often the only language, I've recognized that I need to know Spanish to communicate with them and render effective medical care. They need to have their caregivers able to communicate with them in their native tongues so that their conditions can receive the proper airing and they can receive the best treatment in return. I don't do this as some resume booster and it's not a career essential (there are plenty of lily-white English-only suburbs on the East Coast one can work in); I do it b/c I care about my profession and want to do the job right, and help those who need it most.

I obviously would not have expected you to know this before, but it's presumptuous on your part to offhandedly ascribe the motivation for learning Spanish, on anyone's part, as a "resume booster." I naturally don't claim myself as a Latino, but I do feel a relationship to that community because of my experiences with them, and I take great pride in my ability to provide medical assistance to them and in their appreciation of my own efforts. Pardon me if I seem a little strident here; you seem like a reasonable guy. But you should be far more careful about attributing such disparaging characteristics to people's motivations.

And one more thing, Ivan; you should not shout out your points in all caps like that. This is especially the case when it comes to the issue of ethnicity, even more so if you're challenging it. Although I myself obviously don't claim to be Latino, there are others who may declare themselves as such and may do so for reasons and on bases that may differ from your own. Shouting "you are not Latino" at them is exactly the sort of immature, derisive haughtiness that should be avoided on a sensitive topic like this. (That's the whole point of this discussion.) As I said before, you seem like a reasonable person here; please be sensitive to all the variations across the wide spectrum on this issue and don't make assumptions about people's beliefs or backgrounds so hastily.

how arrogant and proud should be the hispanic-americans (hispanoamericanos) to call themselves latins (latinos) or hispanics(hispanos), and to think that that label was made just for them and describe only their culture !!

I'm sorry to repeat what some people alrealdy say in this forum : all these words refers firslty to the south-west europeans countries who devived their culture and language from the roman empire (Italy, France, Spain, Portugal,Romania).

Do hispano-americans really think that they have the right to considered themselves to be the only heirs of the latin/roman civilisation ??!!!
It would be like if the jamaicans considered themselves as the only "anglos", and were excluding the english, australians and american of that concept!!

If american people (north and south americans) were more aware of the history and the original meaning of the words they use, that confusion would not exist, and this forum would not exist.

I'm a latin from europe. the people in my country are considered like this since 3000 years (latino in italiano), our ancestors created and diffused that culture in all the mediteranean sea. latin culture took root in some countries and derived in different cultures : the latins of second generation (french, spanish, portuguese, romanian)

then, those countries gave birth of latin countries of third generation in america (central and south america, french canada, french, spanish and portuguese countries of africa, etc...

Why the spanish speaking people of america stole the latin label for themselves !!??? Do they wanted to imitate the USA people who have been stealing the name "american" only for themselves ?...

I'm italian from Roma region. when I went to USA the people refused me to reconised me as latin/latino while an indian from guatemala is considered to be the reference of what is latino !!! Salsa or samba are considered to be the reference of latin music in USA while italian or french music are excluded of this label !!! I don't see what is more latin/latino in cuban music than italian music...
Salsa rythm is almost 100% of african backgroungs... since when african music is latin ??!!

For us this is a complete lack of respect against our cultura latina.

I completly agree with you

ivan, you are the most ignorant, stupid and arrogant person i've never met...

You seem to think that everyone who is not born in south and central america could never be latino !! what a stupidity !!!

south and central americans could only be said as "latinoamericans" not "latino" or "latins".
I should remind you that the original latinos are from EUROPE !!
"latinoamericanos" only means the latinos of america. latinos are also latinoeuropeos.

You seem to think that only spanish speaking people can be latino... what ignorance !!

Spanish is not at all the only latin language, it is only one member of a much larger family.
Spanish is a latin language with a strong influence of arabic and celtic languages... it is much less latin than Italian...

You speak about "cultural appropriator". But latinoamericans are the biggest cultural and label appropriators that had ever existed when they call themselves "latinos"...

someone said "if we go as far as to say that people from Spanish descent are white, whcih would ignore the heavy mediterranean component."

of course spanish people are white, and of course they are also mediteraneans. In Europe there is two main kind of "white" people : the nordic whites (tall, light skin, blue eyes) and mediteranean whites (smaller size, dark eyes, brown or back hair, etc...) and of course exists a lot of mixed people.

the latins are moslty of mediteranean type, but not necessary, because "latin" is only a question of culture and language.

Well, I'm an American of Korean parents, and I'm living and studying in Spain right now. I don't know what the hell to tell people :).

Anyway, the term "Latin" of course is misused in the United States, however, it is not completely applied perfectly in Europe either. I think the term "Latin" mainly refers to the mediterrenean Latin-language countries of Europe.

I mean, if Real Madrid plays against AC Milan, they call it a classic Latin matchup. But if Madrid plays Paris St. Germaine, I don't hear anyone calling it a classic Latin matchup. So, just to be fair, it's not perfectly applied in Europe either.

Anyway, race is taken way too seriously in the States and people playing the race card really exacerbate the issue rather than making it any better. People just need to develop tougher skins and need to keep the media from feeling insecure about what people label them as.

With that said, everyone thinks I'm Chinese in Europe (especially in Spain). That's like calling some Italian guy Spanish, or Portuguese.

Anyway, the world is too small and too diverse for people to be trying to fit everyone into a certain category. People should, at the most, be categorized by what country they come from, and that's that.

Wow! Reading this post has really opened my eyes. I've just read it after reading http://home.att.net/~Alsosa/page2.htm. Yes, my e-mail address has now become to me a skeleton in my closet. I have read every word that each of the previous writers have spoken from their hearts. I apologize if because of my ignorance combined with the romantic appeal to the word Latin, I may appear to have misappropriated its use. Who am I? or you? or any of us? What am I today if I'm an actor in a play portraying the victim of a violent crime? Through empathy, I become the sorrow and the pain as I allow myself to enter into the heart of the character; but only successful if I allow the character to enter into my heart by going through and "feeling" every step, every moment ... And now I'm someone else, part of the audience in a theater - in love - as I watch a movie screen and the hero kisses the heroine. I can even feel my lips purse ever so lightly as I "become" one of the people I see. Who are you really? What is it that we share that is evermore transcending than our earthly roots? I have learned by reading all your thoughts and opinions, that there is much, much more for us to learn about each other, much more to share with each other than what's in a name. I have learned that names have no relative meaning when compared to feelings. And that feelings cannot be adequately put into words. My love and respect to that eternal part of each of you, because regardless of what any of you have said, you have shared a part of yourself. Thank you! Michael Maldonado, TheLatinPoet@yahoo.com

Matt, I agree with you when you say that "latin" is not always perfeclty used in europe too.

In general in Europe there is a confusion
between "latin" and "mediteranean european". Those two concept doesn't fit completly in each other. For exemple, Greece is a mediteranean European country, but is not latin at all. Its language is completly different, its writing, its costumes and its religion too.

In the other hand, some people tend to exclude France from the latin group because this country is half mediteranean and half north european.
French language also seems to sound differently from the other latin laguages and the people is more diverse and mixed than in italy or spain. (northern european and southern types mixed with each other + people of north african origins + people of slavic origins, african ones, etc...)
But This is a mistake because french culture is almost 100% latin. culturally, France share almost nothing with its northern neighbours of germany or england.

GUATEMALTECS ARE THE TRUE LATINOS !

"latino" is a word that only reffers to the cultures with the native indian origins !!!!

Only the people with the native indian origins can be said "latino". That the reason why argentinians are not latins. Us, the people of Guatemala we are the true latinos (like Peruvians, Bolivians, Ecutorians, Mexicans...) because we have no european blood. I think we should exclude definitivly the people of argentina, Brazil or uruguay from the term "latin-america" because thay have nothing in common with our indian(latino) culture. We should stop to speak spanish and stop being catholics because it is a european language and a european religion, AND NOT LATINO ONES !! But I think we should include in "latin-america" all the native indian reservations of USA and Canada were are living our latin brothers !

I don't know why some Europeans that are not latinos at all want to be condidered as native indians like we are !!! Please leave that label for the true latinos... The fact that people of spain and portugal colonized our latin countries doesn't make latinos of themselves !! Those countries colonized some countries of Africa but nobody say that Spain and Portugal are African... They stole our gold, but they won't stole our name !!!

I think for my point of view latin are trying to act like hispanic like on TV holmes this is the truth were the true brown pride fuck puerto ricans and all these islands two MEXICAN-AMERICAN !!!

"Guatemaltec" is ignorant and proud of it !!!!

Hola a todo, Bonjour a tous, Ciao a tuti, hi all

Yo soy Latino, Je suis Latin, Io sono Latino, I am Latin

Can't you see it's almost the same languages????
Is latin someone who is : French, Portugues, Spanish, Romanian, and above it all Italian.Thats it. Latin comes from Latium, which is called Lazio nowaday, Roma's provincia.

Instead of hating us (soy italiano y frances,soy mas latino que ellos o todo tanto), chicanos should be proud as much as WE should be proud of being "brothers" in "nombre".

Viva la Raza Latina, Viva la HUmanidad.Punto final.

BERNARD,
Maybe you're french, at least your name sounds perfectly french.
I'm livin in France. DOnt tell things you dont know about, France is a Latin country no doubt. But it's been influenced also by Germany (East of France, Alsace and Lorraine were German) , by England (West and North, Bretagne, Normandie,Picardie). Our language made us Latins, by speaking it, by practicin it through Arts (Theatre, Lyrics,etc..) by readin and writing (which is an art too) it. Being French (as being any other nationality) means being a mix of many cultures, etnies, colors of skins.
There are no perfect RACEs! Even you , guatemaltec, you fool, alright lets call u Indian, you're right, practice what ever religion you want to, but dont bring silly arguments dated from 1500. And above all, stop insulting others, your ethny would have done the same thing if only you've got technologies ( stealin gold etc ..).It's in the men's will to fight , to discover, to conquer. Your continent didnt need Europeans' weapons and disease to do war against other ethnies livin in the same place, same continent, India as well as u say, and perhaps they were even more cruals, at least they were more primary educated (thats why they didnt discoverd the old continent).
True latinos uh ?.. haha, true latinos are Italians, not chicanos, not guatemaltec, not rican.Just study more and quit showin to the world your sillyness.
I dont have any pbm with what u all call "Latinos", and neither with Black people, neither with Asians. If any of them accept to stop telling dumb things (like racism, whos latino and who dont) I welcome him or her with pleasure, cause we're all living on Earth, quit blinding yourself, earth doesnt belong to us, we belong to it , we're Dust. When you pass away, Earth's still here.
Once again, stop listenin to people's BS, do what you can to live in Peace with your next. Accept it Guatemaltec even if it sounds too Christian. There are many FLowers in a Garden, but only One Water feed them.
think about it haters.

I certanly must agree with Matt. Recapping the whole thing, Hispanic means someone with Spanish heritage either by race or language, Although many people from Spanish speaking countries could be called Native Americans. Latin is anyone carries traces of Latin Culture either by language or by race (Mediterranean European) French, Portuguese, Italians, Spanish and even Romanians are Latin. Latin is a much broader term because it includes more people.

The problem in the U.S. is that society intends to label people so they know what can be expected from them. It's up to everyone to break all stereotypes and live their lives the best they can and do as they please. Facts:

- French Canadians are Latin too.

- If there's an African-American there should be
European-Americans. So called Native-Americans
should be plainly called: Americans.

- Latin music is Carmina Burana.

- Caribbean rythms like salsa and merengue etc.
have their roots in Africa same as Rock and
Roll.

- Another good example of Latin Music is Opera.

Gracias.

I certanly must agree with Matt. Recapping the whole thing, Hispanic means someone with Spanish heritage either by race or language, Although many people from Spanish speaking countries could be called Native Americans. Latin is anyone carries traces of Latin Culture either by language or by race (Mediterranean European) French, Portuguese, Italians, Spanish and even Romanians are Latin. Latin is a much broader term because it includes more people.

The problem in the U.S. is that society intends to label people so they know what can be expected from them. It's up to everyone to break all stereotypes and live their lives the best they can and do as they please. Facts:

- French Canadians are Latin too.

- If there's an African-American there should be
European-Americans. So called Native-Americans
should be plainly called: Americans.

- Latin music is Carmina Burana.

- Caribbean rythms like salsa and merengue etc.
have their roots in Africa same as Rock and
Roll.

- Another good example of Latin Music is Opera.

Gracias.

Salut Romano ! Tu as l'air de douter du fait que je sois français, et bien je vais donc te repondre dans la langue de molière...

Je crois que je ne peux pas te permettre de dire que je dis des choses que je ne connais pas. Je connais l'histoire, la complexite et la diversite culturelle de mon pays... De plus, j'ai moi-même des origines bretonnes (PS : par ailleurs, la culture bretonne est d'origine celtique, elle presente de nombreux points communs avec la culture de l'irlande, l'ecosse ou du pays de galles mais n'a jamis ete infuencee par l'Angleterre qui est d'origine anglosaxonne!.. enfin bref)

Je sais bien sur que chaque peuple et chaque culture est un assemblage complexe d'influences diverses. J'ai simplement essayé d'être un peu radical dans ma prise de position en disant que la culture française est latine à 100%, ce qui occulte bien evidement les influences germaniques des régions du nord-est, les influences nordiques de la Normandie, l'empreinte celtique de la Bretagne, la culture du pays basque, l'influence africaine aux antilles, indienne à la réunion, et plus récement les influences culturelles apportees par les communautés magrhebines, africaines ou asiatiques... Je voulais dire par là que notre latinité est le point commun que nous avons tous francais, en plus de notre identite regionale ou de la culture de nos parents... en celà notre culture est 100% latine. Mais elle possede aussi la capacite d'integrer diverses influences. Des phenomènes similaires ont eu lieu en Amerique latine ou les cultures espanoles et portugaises ont joue un role "d'unificateur" des apports culturels Africains et amérindiens.

je pense que la latinite est un concept culturel fort car il admet en son sein la diversite et les influences d'autres civilisations, ce qui est beaucoup moins le cas dans les cultures anglosaxonnes qui ont plutot tendance a s'organiser selon un model communautariste. Les cultures latines elles, sont traditionnellement liees a l'idee du metissage culturel et racial. C'est pourquoi aujourd'hui, en ces temps de replis identitaires je crois que nous devrions plus fortement revendiquer notre latinite, qui nous unis tous et qui fait notre fierte commune.
D'autant plus que la latinite est une reference au monde mediterraneen, dans lequel les gens d'origine Maghrebines pourraient plus facilement s'identifier étant donné les points communs au deux rives de la mediterranee, plutot qu'au model du "Gaulois"... Malheureusement aujourd'hui en France ce sujet est rarement abordé et il est presque tabou de dire que nous sommes latins... Ce serait bien que cela puisse changer avant que nous ne soyons definitivement absorbes par la culture anglosaxonne.

Dans mon petit texte en Anglais je n'ai pas presiser de ma pensee. En effet, ce n'est pas facile de s'exprimer corectement dans une langue qui n'est pas la sienne. Voila qui apportera quelques eclaircissements sur ma position.

A bientot

This is an incredibly interesting thread. The discussion is situmulating and thought provoking, but is it really leading to anything?

What can we agree on? Well, first we can agree that some people, descendants of persons from Central or South America or the Caribbean, feel "insulted" when they are called "Hispanic" or "Hispano." Others don't wish to be called "Latin" or "Latino." We have others who can't seem to agree on whether America is one continent or two.

Ruego sinceramente me perdonen, pero que típico de HISPANOAMERICANOS en el no poder ponerse de acuerdo en nada! Esta conversación es una simple ilustración de la realidad nuestra: no nos podemos poner de acuerdo en la cosas mas simples. Todo es un tragico punto de honor. Argumentamos incesablemente, enfocandonos en verdaderas trivialidades, en vez de enfocarnos en la riqueza de nuestra herencia cultural. con razón el desarrollo politico, cultural, y social ha sido tan lento en nuestros paises de origen.

My point is, we have a rich cultural heritage. Why do we trash about like fish on land, trying to find a "label" that is fitting, and at the same time, "non-offensive" (i.e. politcally correct). How absurd.

My name is Hendrik Bastiaan Schouten. Fully a Dutch name, courtesy of my father's side of the family. My segundo apellido is Del Bosque. I am 1/2 Dutch and 1/2 Mexican, and 100% Estadounidense. I was born in Honduras. I have lived in Boliva, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Washington D.C., Arizona, Oregon, and - as of 6 months ago - Atlanta, Georgia. My wife is Salvadoran. She is 1/2 Salvadoran, 1/4 Guatemalan, 1/8 German, and 1/8 French. Now, would you politically correct label-makers care to please come up with a term that describes my three children?

No, it's not easy. So why dwell on a label? Because you are "offended"? Because you need to define your own identity and don't wish others to do so? Because you feel that society must somehow be sensitive to your particular racial make-up?

Let's face it, in the United States of America, we (and I mean those wish a genetic heritage that come from south of the Rio Grande/Bravo)are a minority. Most Estadounidenses (much easier that saying Unitedstatians)are just now being really exposed to our "culture." They are eating more of our food. Their music is influenced by ours. Even their reflections on family is being changed through exposure to us. So what if they call you Hispanic, Hispano or Latino? You know something, they are and aren't right.

First, as many Europeans posters have correctly pointed our, Latin refers to those countries or peoples who were inextricably shaped by the ROMANS. Italian, French, Spanish, Portugese, etc. Their native languages rest comfortably on the richness of its origins - the language of ROME. And the languages of the majority Latin Americans are ROMANCE languages - having ROMAN origin. So yes, many Europeans are Latin. All Hispanics (from Spain or the New World) who speak Spanish also have a Latin inheritance.

Secondly, we are Hispanic or Hispanos, depending on the language you use. But one thing is certain and cannot be obliterated from our history, culture, or even DNA - we are just as much Spanish as we are Native Americans. We are the product of the clash of cultures and the inevitable intertwining of both. Maybe you are more or less "Hispanic." Maybe you are more or less "Native American." But you cannot deny that to some extent or another, we are both. Our language, our culture, even our superstitions are a complicated and wonderful mix of both. But to deny one or the other is simply an act of self-serving indulgence. Even self-martyrdom, if you like. that, by the way is also somehting we are very good at.

I hate labels because they are devisive and self-serving, in my opinion. But being that so many are searching for one with which to be comfortable in (as if being a human wasn't challenging enough) I suggest the following 2:

1. Latinoamericano or Latin American - it says you have your Latin roots, and at the same time distinguishes you from Europeans. It also states that you are from the Americas, a region which has always been an area of racial and cultural fusion.

2. Hispanoamerican or Hispanic American - this one is a little exclusive of Brazilians, so I apologize. I think most Brazilians could care less, however, since they see themselves as Brazilians. But, back to the point...Hispanic American validly merges your Spanish and American roots and distinguishes you from those who culture is Nordic or Anglo.

If you need to feel the warm and fuzzies and be "inclusive" you could say that you are Iberoamericano or Iberian American. This simply states that part of your heritage and blood comes from somewhere on the Iberian peninsula (be it Spain or Portugal).

Personally I don't mind either of the terms that have been talked about here. Latino. Hispano. They are the same to me. And most Spaniards refer to themselves as Españoles, so I don't see where the confusion or "ofensa" comes from. I guess I might have a slightly inclination towards Hispanic American - I do speak Spanish 50% of the time after all.

But in the end, all I will say is that my name is Hendrik Bastiaan Schouten Del Bosque. I'm human. Nice to meet you.

I like the post sent by Hendrik as it resume most of the clarifications about the terms object of discussion. After having read lots of postings about this matter I would like to focus mine on racism.
As European I would not like to write too much about the racism in USA as I have never been there and all my knowledge is from second hand. Anyway, even though being from second hand it can be clearly apreciated that terms as latino or hispanic are not coming from the subjects defined by this adjectives but from the ruling class in the states. It has been made to clasify non-pure anglosaxons in different groups that can fit with american white mentality. With inmigrants from non-english speaking american countries (or american citizen with roots in that countries or from the nothern lands of mexico occupied by america in the XIXth century) there is a problem at the time of fiting the people as the diversity between them is huge. This could be a resume of my understanding of part of the problem of hispanic and latino, as this terms are not acceptable for many people which are included on it, or if acceptable any other could fit better, surely its own nacionality.
I think that I can add something to the question of the concern the concern of the "apropiation" (better..., asignation) of the term latin, latino, Spanish or Hispanic, by the South and central america, causes in Europe.
This corncern, under the clothes of ethimology correctnes, really is an expresion of racism. We should not forget that inmigration from "latin-american" countries does not only happen in the states but in Europe also, and mainly in Spain, Portugal and Italy. There is a deep racist movement in Spain against foreigners, muslims above all, but also against bolivians, peruans, ecuatorians, etc... So, when some spaniard is ofended becouse this use of the term latin, or worse, becouse if he/she uses this word is identified with latinamericans, what is under this ofense is not a linguistic matter, but a manifestation of belonging to a different race. It is a way of saying: "I am Latin, but white and european, please change the term that you, my american friend, use to clasify sub-humans."
Of course this last sentence is exagerated, besides that horrible, or not?.

I would like to know your impresions about this.
Regards.

After reading your opinion or perception of what is Latin or what is Hispanic, I've come to a conclusion that it really doens't matter where you come from or what you believe what you should be! We should stand together as one race and put our difference aside wether your American, European, African, Asian or mixture of any. Together we stand divided we fall. Focusing on a minor issue is wasting valuable energy that can be use to help others in need. Others in NEED? How about child abuse, world hunger, stop wars, understanding and helping our planet instead of wasting billion in space travel. Look at the devastion that our greed, and power has caused around the world! These are major issues that we as humane beings need to address not wether we are Hispanic or Latin, because at the end we all bleed red!

Thanks,

Alonso

My name is Jerry Scruggs and I am a black man that lives in Nashville,TN who speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese since I was a kid. I sometimes laugh at the commentary and the lack of reasoning thereof of some of the comments concerning Latinos and/or Hispanics. I sense a lot of feeling that people are just afraid to be lumped as a black(African American is too damn political). To be quite honest, the only difference between me and a Latino is that there is no difference because I speak two Romance languages, and there's damn sure Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Costa Ricans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, and Colombians(don't mean to exclude the other various nationalities)that look and speak just like I do and I am a black man from the states. And I notice someone mentioned earlier about the black influence of Latin America; well, the truth is that I know that(as a black person) I see my culture in Latin America and to put it blunt black is black regardless of language. The debate with Latin and Hispanic is cultural and socially ignited more than anything; it is easy to say that since I am from blablabla country France(for instance that I am a European Latin). Shit, I'm Latin if you follow that definition 100%. If a person is from Haiti is that person considered Latin; hell no!because society sets its own rules and excludes people based on color because Haitians speak French which is a Latin language. I rest my case. If anyone has comments, please email me at your convenience. Thank you. Kiko El Morenito a.k.a. Jerry

"Latino/a" is a new term, with a new origin and new meaning!

All the posts here support one underlying concept: the spanish crusades and their injection of the language into cultures around the world have created a mass confusion and haphazard mix of language and culture.

This is a very difficult issue and best left to individual choice because no term can ever describe the undiscribable. We think we're all related somehow because we speak languages of similar origins, but we're not.

Some latin americans come from raped and violated ancestors. It should come as no surprised that therefore some refuse to be associated with these spanish savages and prefer the term Latino, however technically incorrect it is. It's a term with a new origin and meaning, not the historical origin and meaning.

This should simplifiy things for all the readers of these posts. We're dealing with a new word that happens to be spelled just like the roman Latin.

Hispanic is correct for some. It was not meant to insult, as the word 'Nigger' was, but rather to help the census commitee classify a very LARGE group of people who had no cultural or physical relationships--simply a language commonality.

They should just add Latino to the system.

that's my two pesos!

Spanish speaking america is something strange. On one side they are proud of having a commun herency coming around spanish language, but on the other side they seem to hate being related to Spain...

The reason some gave for reject the term "hispanic" is that it obviously relates to Spain.

On the other side, when they form a community in other countries they immediatly show their proudness, as if they were coming for a unique nation. But because this unique nation doesn't exist and because they doesn't have a name they try to apply only to them the word "latino" or "latin" only to themselves... As if it was a new word that describe the people coming from a new country named "latinaland"....

But their conception of latin america is very excluding, and exclude all non spanish speaking latins of america (french canadians, haitians, brazilians, etc... who are as latin as spanish speking people...)
So, the pretending self-called latinos, if they are so proud of being spanich speaking, why they reject the adjective "hispanic" (that means exatly what they are proud about) and adopt "latino" (that means exactly what they reject; taht is to say the other latin cultures : portuguese, French, Italian, etc...)

If you don't like latin cultures, don't call yourself "latino"... If your are proud of your mediterranean/Roman background be proud of being latino.
If you are proud of being speaking spanish, be proud of being hispanic...
And stop calling yourself "latino" without knwing that it realtes to Italy, france, spain and portugal...

The root in all this Latin/Hispanic conflict is the arrogant attitude in mainstream United States where they think they are entitled to call themselves Americans, their country America, as opposed to a whole continent that hates that practice and overall to their chauvinism. I am northeastern Mexican and I do not feel ashamed to be called Latino, and yet, I am not of Amerindian descent. I want to notice also that I am not a leftist or something, I love the US and many US nationals, because I was educated there and have always been well treated by them, However the only thing I hate about that country is that arrogant attitude that they call themselves "America". And well, if there is no English term for United States nationals create one! C'mon you people! You were able to reach the moon and yet you can't come up with a proper term for yourselves!

I personally believe that hispanic is a term used by america to catagorize so called latino's in this country,because of the language and catholic culture shared by most so called latin american countries. I'm a cuban of african decent, and i believe that I' am not hispanic or so called latino. I can understand why the people of spain,Italy,France or portugal dislike being catagorized with the term hispanic of the americas. Most so called latin americans are of inian, or african decent. Although cuban has a large white population, the majority is of african decent. The only countries that do have a large decent of pure latins to me is Argentina,urugray, and brazil even though brazil is kind of questionable in their ethnic backgrounds.In my opinion, the only true hispanics, are the ones from southern europe that are white, which most latin americans are not. All we have in common with spain or any other imperial nation is the religious and the language, other than that, spain is as different from, a mostly native american ancestrial mexican nation, to a predominately african nation such as cuba or the dominican republic

I agree with regio.

There is something strange about names in the american continents... Calling "Americans" only the people of USA (who are mostly from european descent) and "latinos"(the name of a european ethnic group) to call the others inhabitants (who are not mostly of european descent)

You American people must do something to change the bad use of those names in your country:

Calling people of USA "united-statians"

using "latino" to refer the the people of latin/romance languages and culture.

maybe it is necessary to write to the census bureau to stop using "latino", and replace it with "hispanoamericano" (wich means american of spanish language)

maybe it is necessary to boycott the "latin grammy awards", witch volontary exclude all non-hispanic singer and musicians... wich exclude latin europeans of their own designation...

It is necessary to learn to the people that "latin/latino" doesn't means "hispanoamericano", etc...

last week, I was in Rome when I heard from an american (probably with hispanoamerican roots) who said "there is not a lot of latinos here"...
I don't know if we must laugh or cry about such affirmation...
The next time I come to Mexico I will say to them "there is not a lot of americans here..."

*sigh* Let's face it, there are millions of people suffering the pangs of starvation, and being blown to bits by bombs while attending Sunday school, and being gunned down by their neighbors because those neighbors have to prove how worthy they are to a bunch of uneducated, merciless, bloodthirsty street rats (aka "gangs")...and lets not forget the horror of inaccurate name calling! Oh no! Whatever shall we do?!!!! *lol* I thought sticks and stones break bones, not names. Oh well, silly me. Ok, seriously. Accuracy is the key here, and if some people are offended by the use of the terms "Hispanic" and/or "Latino/a," well, perhaps something should be done. I have read the many reasons why people find the afore-mentioned terms offensive, and if these people wish a speedy recovery for their injured egos, I suggest the following:
1. Stop crying.
2. Now that you've dried your eyes, try opening your mind a little. Not everyone is as educated
as you are about your culture/heritage/etc., and what you consider a major insult (by being called Hipsanic or Latino/a) is sometimes just an innocent slip up by someone who, like yourself, has never looked up the original, official definition of the afore-mentioned terms.
3. Look up those terms. Most likely you'll feel really stupid for being so passionately defensive about something you were incorrect about in the first place. Or perhaps not. Either way, you are now aware of what those terms really mean, and you can make a better decision. And most importantly, you will realize that it really doesn't matter what other people think, as long as you are sure about yourself and love yourself for the unique HUMAN BEING that you are.

Aren't South American's Myan, Azteks etc. These were Great Empires. Stop trying to take the Italian Identity.

Latins are only from Latium or current day Lazio.
They still learn and speak LATIN!!!!!! in school in Italy. The official Roman Vatican Language is LATIN!!

question to americans : if you reserve the use of the word "latin" or "latino" to the mestizo people south of usa that speak spanish, it means that in your mouth Italians, Spanish, Portuguese adn french are not latins...

How to you call them ? How do you call the true latin countries ? and its people ?

What is for you a "latin lover" ? is it a "mexican lover" or a "aztec lover" ??!!

Immigrants. What one is surprised. The suffering. Distant beings. To leave everything. Forum of immigrants. Aid in health mental.Bajo yield, low self-esteem. We will help you.

ok ok, hispanics or latinos. It is ALMOST the same thing. we all refering TO THE people who are immigrants and stablish them selves in the EEUU. or USA. and they speak spanish and english. I speak spanish and I was born in a contry located in CENTRAL AMERICA per say. If you have any knowledge of it, central america exist also. I live in the United States of AMERICA. I considered my self as an american too. eventhough I'am not from this country. but I was born in a contry that belons to same continent. which is America and period. I considered my self as latino because I understand that the origen of the word comes from a historic and epistemological influence from the latins. spanish language was the result of a mixture between arabic latin, and some english roots. I consider my self hispanic because through the brutal and sad history our identity is still alive. From the spanish conquest and colonization to the freedom and independence. I don't see a problem with these two terms. I am both hispanic and latino. But for those that claim that USA is considered as AMERICA only. you need to visit some other countries from this continent and you'll see that USA is not the only country that composed this big continent including Alaska, and Groenland to cabo the ornos and all the islands around it. all these countries make AMERICA. if I want to be more spesific I can say that I am Mexican or canadian or central american but I am AMERICAN TOO. DON'T YOU THINK. and Is not my fault that I speak two languages. jajajajaja.

I have read all the comments in this page, and I have to say that I have seen from the most ignorant uneducated personal points of views, to very open minded educated ones. Latin or Hispanic, Latino/a o Hispano/a, Latinoamericano/a o Hispanoamericano/a?????? Yes its understood where Latin comes from, and the many other languages that branched off of it such as Spanish,and so on. It doessnt bother me one bit to be called either one of this names/labels/titles which ever it is, although if you asked me what I am I will gently say Im Mexican or Mexicano, but if you choose to say Im Latin or Hispanic it doesnt bother me either.

Racism is left to the ignorant or perhaps close minded unexperiece people, either in the USA or any other country in the world. Unfotunetly racism still extict but not with the intensity as it did many years before, and as the years go by I believe it is less and less, but i think all depends on each individuals education, values and ideals.

Now for the topic which this discussion is being based on Hispanic or Latino, I agree with YO she/he quoted

"I considered my self as latino because I understand that the origen of the word comes from a historic and epistemological influence from the latins. spanish language was the result of a mixture between arabic latin, and some english roots. I consider my self hispanic because through the brutal and sad history our identity is still alive. From the spanish conquest and colonization to the freedom and independence. I don't see a problem with these two terms. I am both hispanic and latino."

I guess Latinoamericano or Hispanoamericano would be more or less correct as well, simply for the fact that the word speaks more of the Spanish/Latin speaking nations in America and not Europe. Now some other comments that other people have made on Labels being stolen, for does people, I say that you cant make such a comment for you're speaking on your behalf and generally o\in return of a comment some other people made and not the whole Spanish speaking population in all Latino America!!

If you're really that confused still, you just dont know what to considered yourself whether of your country of origin or to a certain group of people, then I suggest you do some reaserch. For the most part almost all the nations resulting in Latino America from the Spanish/French/ Portugese conquest, share and unumbered of similarites in culture church languages and mixtures of ethnic groups such as the top stratus was formed by Spaniards born in Spain, called peninsulares or gachupines, most of whom came from titled families and held the highest ranking posts in both the government and the clergy. Next came the criollos, those born in Nova España/Mexico of Spanish parents, the Mestizos those of spaniards-Indian parents, mulattos (Spanish-African), castizos (Spanish-Mestizo), zambos (Indian-African). Added to this mix were the large numbers of Filipinos, Chinese and Europeans of assorted nationalities who emigrated to Mexico during the era. Having emerged from this singular fusion, modern society makes our counties so rich in culture. So be proud of who you are, my Herritage past on from Aztec, Mayan, Tarasco, Olmeca and the different ethnic groups that had already existed before the conquest of america, still live today as history speaks for its self, although much of its culture was destroyed its still clear to me where it came from, so to those comments at which was spoken and said that we keep trying to still the Italian Identity its completely senseless, no offense but if in fact that only latin are the ones that live in Italy. Then your culture its your food customs and religion right! So why dont you worship your Roman Gods as oppossed to worship Jesus christ, b/c if Im not wrong Jesus wasnt Italian right, and see this was like what you were saying about Latin Americans. Well any how I also agree with Hendrick. But its clear to me that many prefer to be different names, but it doesnt really matter to me b/c we're all humans like somebody said in this site. I will also say that this has also made my mind more open, and based on some of the comments, their is no question in my mind that the best thing in the world is Education understing and knowledge.

UNAS PALABRAS DEL CHE GUEVARA

En la capital de Perú conocen a un prestigioso sabio, el doctor Salvador Pesce, quien escribió un libro acerca de los indios. A instancias suya los dos argentinos lo leen y cuando le es solicitada su opinión, Granado elige una respuesta que complazca a su interlocutor. Ernesto, por su parte, hace angustiosos esfuerzos por escudarse, tal vez por no lastimar la susceptibilidad del anciano, pero al fin se ve obligado a contestar:

Mire, doctor... Parece mentira! Que un hombre tan inteligente como usted, con la capacidad y el valor suyo, haya escrito un libro tan mediocre... Este libro está malo porque es negativo, porque no es marxista, porque describe un fatalismo del indio que no es verdad, porque ese es nuestro punto de vista y no el de ellos. Así era Ernesto con solo 23 años: parco en palabras, pero radical y directo, sustancial y apasionado por la justicia y la verdad, y ya con una conciencia política desarrollada. Al finalizar este viaje da muestra en su diario de su ferviente latinoamericanismo al afirmar lo siguiente en el recorrido por tierras peruanas: [...]creemos, y después de este viaje más firmemente que antes, que la división de América en nacionalidades inciertas e ilusorias es completamente ficticia. Constituimos una sola raza mestiza que desde México hasta el estrecho de Magallanes presenta notables similitudes etnográficas. Por eso [...] brindo por Perú y por América Unida.

Very interesting subject.
Latin was originally spoken in Latium in what is now Lazio in Italy. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, Latin evolved various Romance Languages (The Romance languages which evolved from Vulgar Latin, or common Latin, also called Romanic languages, are a subfamily of the Italic languages [ The Italic subfamily is a member of the Centum branch of the Indo-European language group. Italic has two branches:
1. SABELLIC including: a) Oscan: spoken in the south-central region of the Italian peninsula. b) Umbrian: (not to be confused with the modern Umbrian dialect of Italian), spoken in the north-central region.
2. LATINO-FALISCAN including: a) Faliscan: spoken in the area around Falerii Veteres (modern Civita Castellana) north of the city of Rome. b) Latin: originally spoken in west-central Italy] ). The Italic languages are first attested in writing from Latin inscriptions dating to the 6th century BCE or 5th century BCE. The alphabets used are based on the Etruscan alphabet, which is itself based on the Greek alphabet. The Italic languages themselves show minor influence from the Etruscan and Acient Greek languages. As Rome extended its political dominion over the whole of the Italian peninsula, so too did Latin become dominant over the other Italic languages, which ceased to be spoken perhaps sometime in the 1st century. From so-called Vulgar Latin (coomon Latin) the Romance languages emerged. As you can see, Latin is a language and not a culture; therefore, If we acept the term LATIN, or Latino, we must also accept the term Hispanic since the majority of us in this board speak "Spanish", no?
Personally, I do not refer to myself as a Latino, I do not speak Latin (only the Vatican does) and I certainly do not refer to myself as Hispanic since I do not recide in Spain. I am Chilean by genetics and the law of my country has legally made me a citizen of said land. For example, if I open a Chilean restaurant, a Chilean Cultural Centre and a cueca (national dance of Chile) dance studio in a block in New York, does that make everyone that recides in that vicinity Chilean? Of course not, then why are we doing the same with Latin? I am South American, some of my friends are Central Americans while others are North Americans. France means "Franks", as in the conquering tribe the Franks, do the French consider themselves German? No. Furthermore, actually, we are closer to the Iberian Romance language than we are to true Latin. What should we call ourselves then if we cannot be Latinos or Hispanics? How about, in my case, ChilenoAmericano? Just a thought, but I think i'll use it, sounds cool. Bueno, me despido con un fuerte abrazo, y gracias por este excelente espacio en el internet.

my mother is puerto rican and dominican and my father is black. since you all have said that latino is like european i'd like to know what you would you call a puerto rican, dominican,mexican, or cuban person.

my father is black and my mother is puerto rican and dominican. since mostly everyone has said that latino/a is european i'd like to know what you would call a puerto rican, or mexican or a cuban.

okay..i just came across this and i read most of the posts on here and just have a few things to say...

i myself was born in the Dominican Republic but moved to NY, and racially i'm black(African), but culturally i'm "latina/hispanic",

now, the reason why there is such a conflict of labels is b/c of white supremacy, its divide and conquer..why is it that only people of color have problems with labeling themselves, while "whites" can easily conform to being called white, european, or from their respective country? but people of color have to deal with a variety of terms, and each which is divisive and is getting more so, b/c y is it that they separate chicano from latino? the problem is that we allow this division to keep ocurring and it only hurts us by causing conflict which dilutes the power we have as a whole...

and 2 those from "latin-american/ spanish-speaking countries", we are not a "race" most of us are mixtures of African, Spanish, and Indigenous peoples, and our culture is mixed as well...

and 2 end my comments, instead of letting ourselves be divided..all people of color should just check "other" and write Person of Color when you get the census

I must say that the original latins are Italians because Latin originated in Italy in a place called Latium near Rome. The indigionous people of Italy were the Latins who formed the Roman Empire. Italian is the closest to the original Latin. When Rome became an empire the Latin language spread and became replaced with the vernacular languages of Spain, France, Portugal, and even Italy. The term latino is applied to people of Latin America, Central America, Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico ect is because people from Spain conquered the native people of these countries and forced them to learn the Spanish language. I assume people think that since Spanish is a Romance language that would make the people of South America, Mexico, Central America latin. The people of these countries are a mix of Spanish and a mix of the native people before the Spanish arrived. That does not explain to me why they are latin according to the United States and these countries and not Italians, French. and Portugese along with Romanians. Latin is a language not a race!! That is the equivalant of saying Jewish is a race and not a reliion. Jewish is a religious perference not a race of people but that is another story. i do think that the language we use in reference to the term latino has caused a confusuion. I do feel if a person is going to call themselves Latino or Latina then they should include Italians, French, ect. I do think that Guatemaltec should study history and get his facts. I believe that we are all HUMAN BEINGS and we should all work together to better humanity. We all bleed red. Peace and love to everyone and good tidings to all. Bouna notte Buenas noches, and good night.

Acuerden, que no importa el color u origen de nuestra raices, solo que hoy en dia estamos ubicados en un pais que nos considera un grupo minoria. Aqui hay que olvidarse nuestro pais de origen pada poder unirnos..

Recuerden las famosas palabras del Che Guevara:

En una fiesta para celebrar su veinticuatro cumpleaños en Perú, el Che hizo un brindis declarando: "... esa división de América (Latina) en nacionalidades inciertas e ilusorias es completamente ficticia. Constituimos una única raza mestiza que, desde Méjico al Estrecho de Magallanes, presenta notables similitudes etnográficas. Por esto, en un intento por deshacerme del peso de cualquier provincianismo mezquino, alzo este brindis por Perú y por una América unificada"

Con mucho amor para todas las personas que hablan el idioma Espanol en sus casas .....

I came across this page, and started thinking about many things about myself. I guess I'm "Latin/Hispanic" because my folks come from el salvador,but I was born in a country that is classified as not being "latin" because it's official language is english, even though it is in Central America. When I was young, I never thought about what I was, all I knew was that I spoke spanish. I guess I could look like the typical "latin/hispanic", but with some exceptions, that sometimes people think I'm filipina/chinese, though most of the time they call tell I'm "latin". Both my parents are mestizos, but we have more indigenous blood then european. They don't look asian, only I. well sometimes, It comes from the indigenous blood. As far as I'm concerned everyone comes from Adam and Eve, and only when God confused the languages amount the people, that all this "races" came about. So since we're on the subject, we can clearly say that we come from the mud of Iraq, since that's where The Garden of Eden was made, and Adam and Eve dwelt there, so everyone has their origin in the middle east. I only know that now, instead of wasting our time in deciding what race we are we should be more worried about how we are as a person. In the end we all go back to being dust, from where we come from, and to see if we're repared to meet our Maker.

"my mother is puerto rican and dominican and my father is black. since you all have said that latino is like european i'd like to know what you would you call a puerto rican, dominican,mexican, or cuban person."

Once again for our american friends who can only think in term of "race"; being latin (or latino) is not a question of race. It is a group of countries and people that share a same cultural-linguistic caracterictics.

The western civilisation has always been divided into two main cultural-linguistic groups:

- the latin group : south-west europe, Italy, Spain, France, Portugal... those countries share the historical influence of Catholicism, similar languages, and other caracteristics of mediterranean origins (food, quality of life, social relation system)
Even if those people show similar physical caracteritics (people being mostly dark or brown haired, mostly with dark eyes; it is impossible to classify them as a race as long as greeks or balkanian people shows those caracteristics without being latin, and a lot of latins are blond-haired or blue eyed without being less latin than the others.

- The germanic group : north-western Europe; Germany, England, Netherlands, Scandinavia...
Those countries are are speaking languages coming from germanic (sort of old german), are mostly of protestant religion, and didn't had a direct influence of the greco-roman culture. Their values and way of life varies deeply from latin countries. Even if physically they show similar caracteristics (mostly blond hair and light eyes), we cannot speak about a "germanic" because slavic people show the same caracteristics without being at all of germanic culture.

After 1492, with the colonization of the american continent, this division north/south have been exported from Europe to the Americas :
- In one side, the germanic America (or more precicely the anglo-saxon America) where english is spoken (English Canada, United states) - is protestant based and shows the way of thinking from england and northern Europe.
- On the other side, the latin America, where catholic religion is dominant, and where the linguitic cultural influence comes from Spain (in the case of hispanic countries (spanish-speaking)), Portugal (in the case of Brazil) and French (in Haiti, Guyane, Quebec and Antilles)

To answere the previous question "how to call cubans, puertoricans, mexicans, dominicans,etc... The answer is clear: they are
- hispano-americans (not just hispanos, but hispanos if you include Spain) because they live in american continent and have in commun to have been unified by the spanish culture.

HI MY NAME IS IVAN IM A MEXICAN AMERICAN.. ME AS HISPANIC OR LATINO OR WHAT EVER IM MEXICAN EVEN DO MY ANCESTORS WHERE FROM ITALY MY PAREN WHERE BORN IN MEXICO THAT MAKES ME A MEXICAN ..MEXICO IS A MULTICULTURAL NATION LIKE MANY NATIONS IN LATIN AMERICA...DONT BE INGNORANT NOT BECAUSE YOUR LATINO MEANS YOUR ,INDIAN THERE ARE A LOT OF NATIVE AMERICANS IN LATIN AMERICA BUT NOT ALL OF THEN ARE ..THERE BLACK PEOPLE IN LATIN AMERICA WHITE PEOPLE LIKE IN CHILE WHITE GERMANS OR ARENTINA WHITE ITALIANS SPANIARDS POLE GERMANS ETC... OR COLOMBIA OR VENESUELA LARGE WHITE POPULATION OF WHITE PEOPLE LIKE IN NORTHER MEXICO LARGE WHITE POPULATION OR IN BRASIAL WHITE PORTUGES OR NATIVE AMERICANS IN GUATEMALA PERU BOLIVIA THEY ARE THE MAYORITY. BUT THAT DOS NOT MEAN THERE ARE ALL NATIVE AMERICANS...WHERE ARE A MULTYCULTURAL SOCIETY LIKE U.S.A

1= How could Bolivians, Peruvians, Ecuadorians, Guatemalans, and , etc etc; be proud of being called Hispanics when in reality, most of their population are indigenous. I would be ashamed of being called Hispanic. Even countries like Mexico, Paraguay, Honduras, El Salvador have a % of Indians and Mestizos.
2= The Mexicans are called mexicans, & the Brazilians are called brazilian in spite of their official names. The USA's citizens are rightly called Americans, because that's the name they decided to called their country; and has nothing to do with the Continent of America.
North and South America are just continents.

Hello.

1. If I were put in a room with a randomly selected group of people from:(for example) Cuba, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Argentina and Spain, the one thing those people and me would all have in common is Spanish (of the Castilian variety), our first language or "lengua materna". Hence, I would belong in a group with all those people.

2. Now, if you put me in a room with people whose first languages are: (for example)Catalan, French, Italian, Portugese, Romanian and Rhaeto-Romansch (you didn't know that one existed, did'ya?:)), the one thing in common between us would be that we all speak a language derived from Latin (with many other nowadays dead languages having played an important part in shaping these, and all, languages. Hell, Latin itself (as was Celtic and most ancient European languages) was a distant cousin of Persian and Sanskrit). But I digress...this shared inheritance would give make me a member of a different group than the first one.

3. Now, if you put me in a room with... (I think you get my point) Based on my physical appearance, I would probably be labelled as "white" in the US, but I think "of southern European" or "of Mediterranean" origin would be more specific. Of course not all people from that area share the same physical characteristics (not "race", morphological differences among humans are too small to be considered different "races"), but I think I look more like the average Italian or Greek (or Lebanese, for that matter) than like the average Swede or Russian, who is also European and "white" (or like most of my fellow countrymen, for that matter, but I'll address that later). So I could belong with these people in another group.

4. I was baptized and educated as a Catholic, so I'm a member of the group of people who are (at least culturally) Catholic. (I also form part of a sub-group of Catholics who no longer believe in the validity of the Catholic Church's position on almost everything, but that's another matter).

5. I was born, and have lived most of my life, in Mexico. My character and outlook on life have been inevitably shaped by Mexican culture (which is incredibly diverse and varies from region to region). So I am legally, and culturally, a Mexican, yet another group of people.

And so on, ad infinitum. The thing is, all these groups I'm referring to can too easily be taken as mental ghettos in which a person can enslave his or her-self, denying the one group to which we all belong, that is, HUMANITY. My friends, we are all together on this little round ball, and we all have a shared responsibility for not (pardon my English) fucking everything up with petty tribal wars. Maybe we need an extra-terrestrial invasion to finally unite us all? (Tho' I'm sure a lot of people would ally with the invaders, :) ) Como dicen aquí en mi tierra: cada quien es libre de hacer de su culo un papalote, in other words, live and let live. Aufwiedersehen.

Bruno, Planeta Tierra, Sistema Solar, en los confines de la Via Lactea.

My Mother and Father are from Latina, Italy
Latina is a City in Lazio, Italy.(Latium)
There ancestors have been calling themselves Latino and Latina's for Thousands of years.
So I and Millions of other Italian Americans are direct decendants of the LATIN people but when we stand near a Mexican, Columbian or Puerto Recon etc..They are called Latins and we are not. How REDICULOUS!

This whole Latin Thing is stupid also. You should call yourself Mexican American, Columbian American etc..

The USA is an English speaking country. We don't call our self English because we speak English. We are Americans.

I read above that someone said that Bolivia was an Indian Country ?!?!?!? you ignorant basterd please go to the East of Bolivia and say that. You would be hanged for youre racist views. Unfortuantly people not just in Latin America but also The United States and the world only see the Western side of Bolivia the Indian dominated side you rarely hear about my side. We are of Mixed Blood as well as Pure white skinned Europeans of manly Spanish and German decent I myself am mix of German,Spanish and small percent indian I am of tall pale skin complextion not what you see from the west we are another culture with another identity. But we are proud of our Spanish and German background and immagration because of our prosperous mind set we are the economic engine that drives Bolivia unlike the west who does nothing. as for the Latin and Hispanic. thats a topic that will never satisy anyone regarless of there own deffiniton. I was brought up to think that I am Latin that people from Italy, Romania, Portual, Spain, France and Greece are latin because our languages are similar as well as Culture and Music.

Greece insn't latin.

This is a very interesting discussion. I have read so many views and what is most interesting is not the replies per se, but rather how so many people interpret the question - what *is* latino.

To me, when I think of Latino I think of someone who speaks spanish, and has direct lineage to a country where spanish is the primary language. I do not agree with the concept, but I see it referred to as such so often, it becomes burned in my mind, I guess.

What impresses me the most is how so many people who are frankly so damn diverse can simply bond under the fact that they either come from a common geographical place or speak the same tongue. For example, if a hatian moved to the D.R. and spoke spanish, they are without a doubt (to most of america) 'latino'. But then you see some guy from Guatamala wearing a cowboy hat who has more indian/asian facial features than european or african - but he's latin too. Then you see a re-run of CHIPs on TV, and there's Eric Estrada, also a 'latino'.

Do people in India call themselves Anglos because they were colonized by the English? Are the Philipino people spanish because they were colonized by Spain, and have Spanish surnames?

I guess I see myself as just an American. I am half Irish and half Italian. My Irish side has been in the US since before 1900, and my Italian half is 3d generation (Nono grew up in Italy). But, I have red hair and light skin, so everyone presumes I am 'Irish'. But, I do not consider myself Irish at all, since I have no traceable element of Ireland other than what I look like. On the Italian side - I still have family there, and there is strong resemblance between myself and my cousins there. I speak Italian having learned it after learned a bit of Spanish. So, I relate more to the Italian half than the Irish half.

But - really what am I other than an American? And if someone else had the above roots but was half-Mexican and half-Black, would they be any different?

Interesting thought - one day I was talking to my friend who is Dominican, and he was telling me about xyz club, and how the latin chicks there are so hot. I asked him where they were from, and he said all over. So then I asked him if there were any white latinas there, and it was like I asked him the most bizare question in the world. All I was asking was were there any S. Americans, etc. e.g. European features but speak Spanish. This led me to think its really more about the semantics than anything else.

Most of you people have ancestors that never spoke LATIN yet you call yourself LATIN, LATINO, or LATINA.

I'm finished with this conversation, I'll write this one off to widespread ingnorance of history.

Later..

How do you know that our ancestors didn't speak Latin?
To the point: Latino / Latina is a political term, and that is what I am addressing here.

But really, how can you say that none of them spoke Latin? Brush up on your ancient history.

I think we have to fight against the stereotype of the latin people that is made in the US as "non-white" people.
It is true that most hispanic immigrants that come thru the US border are not white. Racially they are mestizos (white-amerindian), amerindians, or mulatos.
Because of that the american people thought that latin=someone exotic, brown skinned.

The original latin countries are European, inhabitated by white-mediterranean peoples. So, the 200 millions latin european people are white.

In latin-america, even if the population is more diverse, the main racial group is white too.
total Latin-america :
white = 175 million people
mestizo (white-native indian) = 155 millions
mulato (white-black) = 105 millions
native indians = 40 millions

So, if we count the whole latin world :
375 million people are white
155 millions are mestizos
110 millions are mulatos
40 millions are native indians

most of the white latin people are "mediterranean type" (dark haired, brown eyes), so view from US anglo-saxon eyes they could pass for "exotic", but they still white.

This fraud is spread mostly from 3rd world countries like with poor education and media regulation. Camilo you are a Moron. If this was up to a Court of Law your blatant misuse of the term LATIN or Latino would show it ignorant head.
You obviously know very little about Latin/Rome.
Lets Talk about racism, in America they have the latin grammy awards and not one of them is LATIN.
You also have to be from a South American Country to be nominated or awarded.

This debate is very interesting to me. I am Puerto Rican and if given the choice I always identify myself as such. If not I am Latino. For those of you who disagree I beg you to go to Webster.com or the Yahoo Dictionary or whatever dictionary you want to and search for the word Latino (not Latin).

Latino is a coined term from the 1940's according to one dictionary, not the ancient variety of the word Latin that many of you refer to. Latin and Latino in Spanish are very different when we compare them to Latino in English.

Latino: etymology: short for Spanish latinoamericano, Latin-American, from Latino, Latin, from Latin Latnus
1 : a native or inhabitant of Latin America
2 : a person of Latin-American origin living in the U.S.

Latin Americans or Latinos are not all Hispanics. Also, we are very different than a Hispanic from Spain. Although some of you may want to deny it Latinos are not pure Spanish or Europeans. We are 500 years in the making of interbreeding between the Spanish, Native Indians, and Africans all to varying degrees. We have our own cultures and our own identities, which in many cases differ greatly from that of the Spanish.

I am Hispanic, but more specifically I am Latino and damn proud of the fact. I hope that you all see the difference in these terms and understand why I don't want the generic government brand of Hispanic. A term coined by the US government to quantify a group of people that they could not forcefully assimilate into white or black. We are our own people or own group.

For those of you who will say that Hispanic came from the Latin era, you are right, it did, well at least its root. The US government coined the use of the word though in the US to count our people as we refused to be simply white or black.

"Latin and Latino in Spanish are very different when we compare them to Latino in English."

So why so much people in USA are using "latin" instead of "latinoamerican" or hispanoamerican".
And why they continue to spread this meaning over the world ?...
Now, in latin Europe we hear speaking about "latin rythms", "latin grammy awards", "latin race" or "latin bomb"... to speak only about hispano-americans things (from part of the american continent of spanish language), or worse, only of the non-white people of those countries (the part of the population who is not of latin origins!) - latino in spanish means latin, not latinoamerican- whatever your american dictionaries can say.

Do you think that "african" (people who live in africa, (black, arab or white)) and "african-american" (black people who lives in america) is the same meaning ? Could we call "africans" only black americans, excluding the peoples from Africa and being correct??!
It is the same for latin/latino : In latinoamericano/latin-american each word counts. american refers to the american (the continent) part of their identity, and latin/latino to their south European part. calling salsa or merengue "latin rythm" is obviously a mistake because it's not from latin Europe, and it is basically an african rythm.

That's incredible that, today, to be recongnised as "latin" (ex: the "latin" grammy awards") someone should be exclusively with "exotic look" (non-white look) and singing on african rythms...
You canno't exclude from the latin/latino concept what is espacially latin.

this confusion should stop.

In viewing this debate I consistantly see a common problem. People keep confusing the wrod Latino with Latin. Thinking in either in Spanish or trying to focus on the root of the word.

Just Like all things words change, their meaining and application evolve. Latino is in English, or more specifically American English, a shortening of the term Latino-Americano or Latin American.

Latin in English means exactly that Latin. Latin is the base derivitave language of Spanish, French, Portuguese, Albanian, Romanianian, Italian, and others. So if refering to our Language it is based in Latin.

I agree with the comment by Latin that too often Latin alone is used where Latino should be used, but this does not devaluate the term Latino.

When viewing this debate please think in English. Latino in this context is an english word not a spanish word.

One Final Thought. If I am Hispanic then all Americans (U.S. citizens) should be considered English. They speak the Language, were colonized mostly by the English, and just like the Latinos have had 500+ years of evolution, post being conquored. U.S. citizens are considered to be Americans therfore I am a Latin American a Latino!

In response top the last 2 comments:

2+2 = 4

Latin( root ) = Latino (Male) Latina (Female)

Latino is not yours to define or redefine it's been used in Italy for centuries. There are around 15 to 20 million Italian Americans in the US.

Who cares about a 50 year old american dictionary

To the Spanish Speaking South Americans that think you are Latin or Latino Americans.

You are about as LATIN as a Tibetian Monk.

Interesting thread, most everything has been covered. The only observation I would add is, it's truly amazing and quite funny how many people around the WORLD call themselves latino.

What a powerful culture.

The fighting and arguing aside.....this is the culture that will shape the future.

any questions?

tengo que decir sólo una cosa:¡ESTUPENDO!

¡Estupendo!

"Latin in English means exactly that Latin. Latin is the base derivitave language of Spanish, French, Portuguese, Albanian, Romanianian, Italian, and others"

No Albanians are not at all latin. I don't know from where you think that. I think you confuse with moldavia, where Romanian is spoken.
you said and other.. there no thers Italy spain, potugal , france, romania, Moldavia. Belgium is half latin-half germanic, Switerland too.
you could had the city-states like San Marino, monaco, Andorra, but those are not really "countries".

marco, I agree with for that latin culture comes from Italy. But is not limited to that country. It is not a "racial" term, and Italians are not a specific "race" different from the spanish or frenchs. Italians, like others latins are a mix of mediteranean peoples, celtic, arabic and some germanic too. But culturally they are all the heirs of Rome, not only the Italians (remember that Italy didin't existed at that time. Before roman conquest southern Italy was not latin but greek, and northern Italy was Gaul (celtic).

hmm, USA is a english-speaking country, whose mainstream culture is anglo-saxon (part of germanic group). Most united-statian people are english-speaking people and live in a anglo-saxon ambiant. as long as latin refers to cultural-linguistic group we can say that there is almost no latin people in the US. the "italian-americans" are not italian anymore since long time... since their culture is anglo.
I see that a lot of united-statians are ashamed of being of anglo-saxon culture and are trying to identify themselves to other groups, of witch they are not part.
For exemple, Jenifer Lopez, she spoke spanish very badly. She' from NYC and sings a sort of RnB... There is nothing "latin" in her... she's very anglo-saxon, and would be seen as an anglo-saxon in Latin Europe and not at all as a "latina"...
I knew some american friends, they told me "we are Italian". I aske them "oh, really, since when did you left your country ?" they answere in a strong american accent "we're never been there"... I laughed. How someone how is born (his parents, grand parents, and grand grand parents too), who obviously have only american culture and way of life could define himself to be something that he's not ? People in USA should understand that what make one's identity is not his ancestor's culture but his actual culture...
It would be the sams if I say that I am african because 4 millions years ago my ancestors were from there...

I have to clarify a few things. BY THE WAY, I think my browser is not indenting my paragraphs. So sorry!! I am asterisk-ing them.

* Italian, contrary to popular misconception, is NOT the most similar existing modern language to Latin. It is, in fact, Sardo, which is extremely conservative (a linguistic term). Next on the list is Italian, and then Spanish. French is the most evolved (distant from Latin) of all the Romance languages.

* There are absolutely no "Latins" left in the world today. There is not a single person who speaks Latin as his or her native language, for that would require some parents with an extremely quirky sense of humour. What DO exist are the "Latin Countries".
* What are the Latin Countries? There is many a criterion to elect, all with gaping holes. The TRADITIONAL answer is simply to say: Italy, Spain, Portugal, Romania, France, and Greece by extension. This traditional answer does not correspond with a linguistic definition, since Greece is far removed, but because of the strong cultural and physical bonds between the Italians and the Greeks and the "fusion" or "Mediterranean annexation", Greece could be considered one of the "Latin countries". There is a faulty historical definition, for you if you were to say "all the territories that belonged to Rome" you would also have to include the British Isles and the Germanian regions, which are not at all "Latin". We should have to contrast that with countries that significantly contributed to the identity of the Roman Empire, such as Hispania (Lusitanian troops become elite imperial fighters, or the Roman Emperors comingn from what is now Spain, etc). France is ambiguous for within its State it hosts no less than 9 autocthonous languages and a seemingly endless array of cultural influences. Nonetheless the South of France is definitely as Latin as the north of Spain and Italy. There is no SENSIBLE way to include anything across the God damn ATLANTIC OCEAN in a concept that traces its origins to several millenia ago. Also we see that Italy does not have "dominion" in this category because first of all, the Empire that adopted Latin as its language was ROME, not "Italy"--Italy was the name of a Territory in the same way that Hispania was the Latin name for Iberia--the Iberian peninsula. Furthermore the use of Latin as a lingua franca persisted throughout these regions very strongly and certainly Italy was not the only one around whose statesmen were using Latin in the eleventh century.

* In classical anthropology there are only four "races", and the INDIGENOUS peoples of the Americas are of the Mongoloid race--who entered the Americas through the Beringian pass. Common sense would dictate that I need not remind anyone that these peoples did not come around speaking any dialect of Latin, but conversations with monolingual citizens of the US of A suggest otherwise. These peoples were subjected to colonisation by the three main powers of Europe: Spain, England and France (please, no one get offended here, we also know that Portugal was a power, these are merely illustrative examples). The colonisers were fairly alike in their unjustifiable (by today's moral standards) treatment and enslavement of the natives, though they differed in their methods. To briefly summarise, the English shot the "Indians" (we will use the incorrect term, once again, only for illustrative purposes, knowing that indeed they are not from the Indian subcontinent in Asia, but simply a catchy term rescued from the journals of explorers), drove them out of their lands and settled there instead, whilst the Spanish (yes, the Spanish, not "the Spaniards"--more on that later) enslaved them. In North America there was no mating with the locals because the ocean-crossers were immigrants, looking for a better life, and thus brought their families with them (no unquenchable sex thirst), whilst the conquistadores were frequently from the poorest regions of Castille and Andalusia. At that time, in Spain, the first-born received the inheritance, the second-child went to the Church, and the third kid got shafted. It was often this third child who hopped on a boat to search for adventure, glory and a better life. Thus he arrived alone in a land that he pillaged and sought to seek benefit from in trade, and after effectively colonising the locals, established himself as a sort of aristocrat.

* It was under this scenario that the Indigenous tribes learned Spanish and how Caucasian genes began to insert themselves into these peoples. The resulting offspring were called "mestizos" and more often than not appear much more "Indian" (indigenous) than Spanish. By their linguistic assimilation and intermittent crossbreeding, the natives of Central and South America started to gain "Spanish" qualities--thus they were becoming "Hispanic"--"like Spanish", but not Spanish.

* Eventually many Europeans flowed into the Americas and established themselves, they too learning Spanish and making it their own language, though their reproductive habits were more diverse. Some mated with mestizos, some with natives, and some only with other Europeans, who by now had both acclimated to and contributed to the new, emerging Central and South American culture, where the unifying elements were the Spanish language (given it a "Hispanic" uniformity) and the diverse idiosyncrasies of the many Indian tribes.

* "Latin", in Spanish (and Italian) does NOT, as some American English-speaking monolinguals maintain, mean "Latin American". The word "latino/a" merely indicates that something has a LATIN QUALITY. Thus, parts the Americas, which were not originally Latin at all, gained Latin qualities by virtue of a Latin dialect and the occasional immigration of people from the Latin countries there. These parts became distinguishable from the other parts of the Americas by becoming "latinoamérica"--the Latin part of the Americas. They could no longer be really be called "Las Españas" o "Las Colonias" when they effectively gained independence, but by then Spanish had become everyone´s native language. As others have noticed, "un latinoamericano" can be abbreviated to "un latino"--what is not said is that this is used only to differentiate them from the Anglo-Americans. No Italian would call a Mexican a "latino" to differentiate him from a Spaniard or another Mexican.

* The only language in which "latino/a" means "a Latin American" IS ENGLISH--OF THE AMERICAN VARIETY. This comes from the American English-speaking monolingual´s discomfort with his own language and thus develops a penchant for using other "exotic" words to spruce up his otherwise empty speech, often doing so "in italics", for added effect.

* The controversy really does stem from another North American habit--an obsession with ethnic identity. Many citizens of the United States have romanticised notions of their own background, and thus declare themselves to be "German-Irish" or "Mexican and Italian" etc etc, when what they really mean to say is that their grandfather got one a boat leaving from one of those countries when he was nine years old. What these people often forget (or perhaps never learned) is that the tribal strands and components of these original European countries are far from homogenous--the countries are CONCEPTS formed around cultural developments. The physical peoples who predated these developments have names that belong to no country in particular--Visigoths, Mediterraneans, Phoenicians etc.

* The US census has created a fine mess of things by a sloppy set of nomenclature, mixing ethnicity, language and origin. As everyone has already noted, the SPANISH-SPEAKING PEOPLES of Central and South America have origins that hail from Asia, Europe and Africa. Nonetheless, any sort of Spanish-speaking tendencies are classified by the US of A as "hispanic", regardless of the race. And curiously enough, the children and grandchildren of these Spanish-speaking Central Americans who choose to live in the US of A are of the same "stock" as their parents (thus being "Hispanic"), but speak little to no Spanish ("el rufo está leak-eando, quiero drivear la troca, no pises la carpeta, he aplicado para trabajar limpiando toilets" etc is NOT Spanish) are also labelled as "Hispanic" when they fulfill none of the criteria.

* Furthermore, cognitive sloth coupled with the natural cultural and linguistic clusterings of immigrants ("hey, we all speak Spanish and have a hard time with English, lets help each other out") has led to others categorising these peoples as "Spanish". From there we get such jewels of sophistication like "Spanish Harlem" when not a single person there is Spanish. Please understand, Spanish means "from Spain".

* I have heard people say that people from Spain are not "Spanish", they are "Spaniards". This is not only an egregious problem of set theory, but also one of basic grammar--one which I suggest be immediately corrected. Please, people: "Spanish" is an adjective, "Spaniard" is a noun of an entity that can be described by the previous adjective. Get it? Here´s a little analogy: Brit and British. A Brit is British. Ahaaaaa. Now let´s all say it again. A Spaniard is Spanish. Given the idiosyncracy of the English language, not all nationalities possess this syntactic quality: the noun and adjectives for Germany or America are the same, for example. But get it straight: "Spanish" means "from Spain" and please at least be conscious of your own actions if you choose to use it irresponsibly and incorrectly.

* There was a "contribution" by someone nicknamed Guatemalteca which merited some riotous attention. My own two cents: that was someone operating a farse, because anyone who could possibly be that stupid wouldn´t have access to a computer, nor much less know how to use one if they managed to escape their one-door cell. To say something like that and actually believe it, you´d have to be the sort of person that would take two hours to die if choosing to commit suicide via blowing one´s own head off, for the bullet would have a hard time finding such an infinitesimal brain.

* Saying that an indigenous Central American who speaks English in the US of A is more Latin than someone from Lazio or Valencia is tantamount to saying that Spike Lee is more English than Tony Blair. I think that is fairly evident by now. Central and South America are both "Hispanic" and "Latin" with several degrees of separation (more specifically, the longitudes that span across the Atlantic Ocean) and through the peculiarities of history and the wondrous exchange of cultures (wondrous if you celebrate it), has some traits analogous to those countries that formerly comprised the Roman Empire.

I hope you can forgive some typos in here. I have tried to keep my own identity out of this, but now that I´m done, I have to let you know that English is not my first language since I am a European--a Latin European. I tend to make typos fairly often when writing quickly in English. Thank you.

That's the problem with mapping everything back to language. To be Latin should only be determined Geographic Location not Language.
The Latin's were and are a Race of people and this doesn't have anything to do with racism. It's a fact there are different races of people in this world.
Whe you categorize yourself as Latin because you speak a romance language is wrong. There are many romance languages.

I know your are right. What is half the world Latin. How rediculous that is!

Are you people illiterate or something? You most definitely can´t write correctly, and by your comments you don´t evidence having understood a word of what you wrote. Whatever the Latins were, they at least were literate!

The people who constituted the Roman Empire were Caucasian, but not all Caucasians are Latin!

Imbecilic.

You are right I am terrible at writing in english. But above you wrote about spanish harlem and south american indigenous people not being spanish and I agree. I would say the same to you about you not being Latin. Just because Rome forced itself on those lands(Hispania, Gaul etc.) doesn't make you anymore Latin.
I believe only Italians can be called LATINS.
And not all Italians

"Ah Ha, Bernard I got you. You just proved my point. You sound like you are maybe Spanish. If you are not from the mother land Latium/Lazio, Italy you are not LATIN. Hey, watch the Passion of Christ. I bet you can't guess what language the Romans are speaking. I'll tell you it's LATIN. So, I agree with you only Italians from Italy are LATINS"

Your reasoning is completly false. I just say that being latin is a quality that is link to culture. As long as you have a latin-rooted culture you are latin. The reason why Italian-americans are not latin is because they became americanized and are now anglo-saxon people. The countrary happened in latin Europe: the romans (latins) have slowly integrated and latinized what is now Spain, South and North Italy, France, parts of switzerland, Portugal and Romania, So some people who weren't of latin culture melted with latin and their descendants became latin too.

By the way, during the roman period and the middle age latin was the language in France, Spain, Portugal, Romania... it evoluted slowly in local dialects. in France Latin was official language in intellectual an universities until 1789, when french, the parisian spoken form of latin became the language of the republic.

Only the people of lazio would be latin ?! Hehehe, lazio is the region of Rome. Now Rome is a big cosmopolitan european capital, with people with origins of very diverse regions and countries... Those people are of course latin, but how can they be more than the others ?! Your problem is that you think "ethnicity" like an american, in terms of "race" while it's only question of culture...

Arturo, your ignorance is amazing. Tu sei un deficente, e te lo dico io. Va, il gran latino del mio cazzo, va. Sei tanto stupido a proposito, o ti esce solo?

"Latin" is a quality OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE. ROMAN EMPIRE, not ITALIAN EMPIRE. Which part of that does your minuscule brain not understand? Italy was just another territory of the vast Roman Empire. Quite frankly, when such important Romans such as the emperors Trajan and Hadrian or the philosopher Seneca were Spanish, for example (you know, Hispania--in Europe? Geography? The Mediterranean?), then I think it is fairly safe to say that Spain is one of the Latin countries. By the way, I hope you realise that many Northern Italians are nearly French or nearly German, and many Sicilians are practically African, so pull your head out of your ass. And do you think everyone in Lazio is descended there from three thousand years ago? What makes Italians the only Latins? Because they speak Latin? Give me a break. Italian isn´t even the closest language to Latin today.

The Latin countries were active participants in the former Roman Empire. Period.

Merda, il GRANDE ESPERTO del mio cazzo. Tanto scrivere questa lingua (l´inglese) di merda per americani come tu finalmente mi mutila l´italiano. Vediamo un po si capisci che essere latino NON É UNA QUESTIONE ÉTNICA. Il tuo caso non ha soluzione, culatone.

It would be nice, to stop the enless discussion about "latino" vs "hispanic" vs "iberoamerican",etc.. with finding a name to the people who live in central and south america who speak latin languages.

The logical answer would be "latin-american" or "latino-americano" (in spanish). But they say that it is too long for a name, and so they use "latin latino", a name that is already used for other peoples.

So we have to find a new contraction of latinoamericano. I have a proposition :
" LATICANO / LATICANA " ("LATICANS" in english)
This word seem to be very good because it already doesn't mean nothing, and it would'nt cause any confusion. This word would be applied ONLY to latin-americans, to describe everything wich is typically latin-american, without any direct reference to latin culture from Europe.
People from latin america, whatever they would be mestizo, white, indians, black or mulatos couls use and apply to their culture and music, without stealing the South European name.

Soon we will hear about "musica laticana", "latican grammy awards", "Jenifer Sanchez, la bomba laticana", "I'm proud of being laticano",
the laticanos are the main US minority, etc...

Spread that idea in your countries, it would solve your identity problem.

VIVA LOS LATICANOS Y LAS LATICANAS DE TODA LATINO-AMERICA!

Y DEJAN LOS LATINOS EN EL MEDITERRANEO.

Laticanos would be a good solution,and honest.
Latinoeuropa is a Moron and Very Bias.

Laticano is a fine term. I´ll make a personal resolve to use it from now and explain it to people.

Resa, con chu cazzi pensi?

It is written "biased", "moron".

Where are my biases?

Umm, just looking at this from a "white's" point of veiw, why is it that everyone BUT whites have about ten million different names for their race? Can people really not get along that well? I don't know, but it just seems odd. I dibs we just overlook racial differences, treat everyone equally, and get on with life. But I'm just a little white girl, so don't mind me.

Please, being latin is not a race ! ( anyway "race" is very very subjective thing)

Anyway, hispanic relates to Spain wich is populated by white people. And latin refers to South European countries who are populated by white people too...

Lru, I am all with you with overlooking racial matters. I personally refuse to fill out any US census forms that have to do with "what race I am" whenever I have to do paperwork for your country. However, you have to understand that for those that do feel they must respond, many of the options are inaccurate.

However, you are wrong when you classify everything as "white". If we were to use those categories, there would only be through groups: Caucasian, Asian, and Black--and any mixes between them.

There is no such thing as "the Hispanic race". "Spanish" (from Spain) almost inequivocally means "white". Central and South America have no "one race"--there are whites, blacks, Asians, and any mix between the three. Trying to generalise with them is a gross error and definitely the main source of all this confusion.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

I was born in Australia, and bare alot of resemblence to Anglo-saxon australians. Because I'm fair skinned, blond and have green eyes, alot of people have a hard time believing that my mother is Italiana and that my father is Argentino. I was raised with the strong influences of my parents ethnic cultures and even speak spanish, but find a lil weird calling myself a 'Latino' because, even though I was raised as one, I dont look like your typical one. The 'Latino's' Australians are used to seeing, dark hair and skin and eyes.

where your "tipical latino" would be from ?

Hispanic are those who have more native blood and probably black with less white and other, and Latinos are those who have more European, white blood. Spain is a Latin European country also.

mari, hispanic literaly means "from or related to Spain"... How could it be possible that Hispanic meant people with more indian blood ?! I didn't that native indians were coming from Spain !...

The problem is that Governments are not reporting history like they should. What are college professors and school teachers actually teaching. It's our job to write colleges and organizations that use LATIN when it's not theirs to use. I heard a Chilean actress in an interview say that she could play a Latin or a European role, can you believe it! She doesn't have a clue. So all of you people that can write,not incuding myself, spread the word..
Be informational, this is not about hate, just the truth. I'm not better than anyone....

It is a vastly different culture.

Argentina is considered the South American country most similar to Europa (Spain and Italy in particular). When my grandfather lived in Argentina for two years and saw that he had more in common with a Dutchman than an Argentine, I think that makes it very clear that the Central American, South American, and Latin (Southern European) cultures are three very different things.

Neither better nor worse. As Arturo said, most of us are just sick of the ridiculous inaccuracy.

bernard, i speak of 'Latin Americans' when I say 'typical ones'. Mainly because they use the term 'Latino' more than europeans would worry about. Because South Americans are still 'Americans' being part of the continent and all, I believe the Latino tag helps them identify with themselves. Because after all, they are a cultural differance throughout the Americas.
And lets be honest, most latin americans have the stereo-typical dark features. All my family in Mendoza Argentina are very spanish and dark looking, with a Mapuche influence also. I got my mothers north Italian looks, and people here in Australia tell me i dont look 'latino'.
When i hear the word 'Hispanic', it sounds to me a little confining, or single filed. As though you cant be much else. Latino sounds more diverse.

Spaniards are not hispanics, and hispanics aren't white Europeans. They're 'like-Spanish', relating to Spain. The word doesn't even exist in Europe, and who said the Portuguese are hispanic. They are not, they don't even speak Spanish so why bother to call them that. They're latinos and so are the Spaniards, Italians, French, and Romanians. Just classify them as latinos or white Europeans, even if you fill out an application. And there is no such thing as a hispanic white. Latin, latino in English is a designation sometimes loosely given to certain nations, esp. the French, Spanish, and Italians, who speak languages principally derived from it.

Spaniards are not hispanics, and hispanics aren't white Europeans. They're 'like-Spanish', relating to Spain. The word doesn't even exist in Europe "

I'm sorry, I European, here "hispanique" firstly means "from spain", and from "spanish-influenced countries". When speaking about "hispanic music", people will firslty think about flamenco...

Fabian,

your family in Mendoza is probably dark because of the Indian blood. People in Spain are only really dark during the summers. You may have some sort of inaccurate idea of what a "typical Spaniard" looks like, but once you go to a non-urban center in Spain, you are going to be quite shocked. (The urban centers have lots of immigrants from places that have nothing to do with Spain so it´s not an accurate snapshot of the Classic Spaniard).

Bernard,

If people think of flamenco when hearing about "hispanic music", it doesn´t make the term accurate. People thought that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq too. If someone said SPANISH music, then Flamenco should be within that category. "Hispanic" music is more like salsa, merengue, or whatever it is that people dance to in the Americas.

"Hispanic" is a vague term, which merely refers to qualities similar to those of Spain. Thus speaking a Spanish language without actually being Spanish could be considered Hispanic. In Spanish, though, a Spaniard would never call himself an "hispano" unless he were pedantic and referring to Hispania, the Roman territory.

I don't speak about the wrong US meaning of "hispanic" but to the original one, as we use it in french :

" Relatif à, ou dérivé du peuple Espagnol et de la culture de l'Espagne "
"related to, or derived from, the Spanish people or the culture of Spain"

The meaning of latin/latino is also false in USA.
Latin refers to all romance speaking peoples.

Both terms "hispanic" or "latin" are inacurate to speak only about the spanish speaking peoples of America.

Its not good for people to be prejudice because were people to not just a bug under somebody's shoe baecause alot of people make fun of us and I'm sick of it.

To Fabian: I'm BLACK, born in Central America? Am I hispanic? Am I a "typical Latin American"? Please dont reflect your limited knowledge about the countries and cultures south of the border of the USA. Deb Moore

It's not about being prejudice it's just about your comprehension level. Can you read! Which one of the ten thousand historical documents would you like me to send you. If anything you are prejudice and your exclusionary practices is the cause of this pressure to preserve accurate history.

Check this out http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/05/12/latin.arab.summit.ap/index.html I quess Brazilians are LATIN also. What a joke.. Write CNN, freakin idiots!

if some of you are interested to discuss about latin cultures and countries You can come to this blog :
http://latin-culture.blogspot.com/

Bernard

Latino is the appropriate term to distinguish people from LatinAmerica living in the USA.

Camilo, you obviously have no self respect. You don't don't have an I dentity so you use anothers.

Also, use latino all you like, most people will let you get away with but laugh inside.

Latin America? Another Joke.

Punk!

" Latino is the appropriate term to distinguish people from LatinAmerica living in the USA. "

I know, but I'm not interested by American english slangs. Latin is not a question link to the USA, where most self-called "latinos" don't even speak a romance language... so are not latin

This is a very interesting duscussion!
I have been studying the Spanish language in the past year in college, and was surprised to learn that people from the USA are called "Estadounidenses" in Spanish-speaking countries. In the USA, of course you know, there is no word like that which means "United Statian."
Personally, I am glad that there is a word for Estadounidenses when I travel to Mexico. It makes it easier to identiy myself clearly, as saying I am "American" does not tell much.

My step-brother is Native American, and he has a similar issue with the use of his cultural name. People call him "Indian," when in fact he is NOT from India! He is indigenous to the Americas, specifically North America. Now, some of his Native American friends don't care if they are called "Indian" and some do, while some want to be identified with their tribe- like Cherokee or Cree. You have to try and err on the safe side and be respectful.

It's so complicated sometimes!
Thanks for the interesting discussion!

Also in italian there's a word to define people from USA, it is Statunitensi.
It would be better if a word like this existed in english too..

it is united-statian or united-statesian.
It is a big movement, I see more and more people using it on the internet. If everyone spred it around, it may become the official name of the inhabitants of USA soon...

When it will be true, "Americans" will become applied to ALL inhabitants of Americas... And people from south-central America will not be obliged to be wrongly called "latinos"... because what they are is "AMERICANS"

I believe that the "Hispanic" thing began because we speak Spanish, the language from Spain. So, I would say, Hispanic is a subset of "Latinos". I don't see the offense in that. However, I understand the discomfort of having to use a term invented by a different culture. But they felt the need to group us for census reasons, etc. I see it more as a practical solution for the americans to call us that way, since they found themselves with so many nationalities in their hands, and the common denominator was the language, Spanish.

Ahh
Latino/Latina.

Person from LatinAmerica, or sharing that heritage.
http://www.answers.com/latino&r=67

And
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino

go learn history

Like every average north-American "Camilo" is thinking that latino is a "race" (a virtual race invented by some ignorant bureaucrats who were not able to classify racially-mixed people in a "black or White" society.) - "latinos" have of course nothing to do with a race, because the so-called latinos are of every race... like their "anglo" counterparts. One part of America had got its language and a part of its culture from north-Europeans, and the other from south Europeans, that's all. Camilo, You're "latino" only because the Spanish are !! If you hate your "spanish side" you should reject the latino label.
You seem canno't understand that "latin/latino" links you more to European culture than "hispanic", because it refers to Italian, Portuguese , French and Romanian culture, not only spanish one.
The latin culture is the deep heart of south European culture, and the most influencial civilisation in the western world. If You seem not understand this, this is maybe because you are completly foreign to the latin countries and cultures and you watch them with you north-American anglo-saxon eyes (yes, for us, the latin-Europeans, the self-called "USA's latinos" are people of anglo-saxon culture, like all your USA compatriots.)
The true latin-americans (the ones who live in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay or Chile know the being latin mean and to what herency it refers.

The use of the term "latino" in the U.S creates an squizofrenic situation to the european latinos. Meanwhile the latino label would be completely acceptable for us in Europe, it becomes completely unacceptable in the U.S where we directly identify ourselves just as europeans.
The problem has been pointed out several times in this forum, the necessity of creating simple labels by the U.S government, the believing by an uncultivated part of the U.S population that latino is a term which refers to a raze and the using of a term picked up from the Spanish wrongly. Becouse latino of course only refers to the countries of Europe where it is spoken languages which derivated from latin. The word which referred to the countries of the new world where romance languages are spoken is "latinoamericano". Obviously a latinoamericano can be of any race. I have met latinoamericanos with yugoslavian, german, british, chinese, polish, etc.. surnames. Remember than cities like Buenos Aires at the begining of the 20th century where a destination for European emigration as New York was at that time. Which common denominator have all the population who lives in the U.S and comes from Spanish speaking countries? Obiously the answer is in the question. Makes any sense to make this agrupation?. I don´t know, afortunately I live in Europe where this kind of questions make us feel rude and racist.

In America that Racist crap is all played out. Minorities cried wolf one to many times. And we don't listen anymore unless it's a real case with sunstantial evidence.

There isn't anything racist about the truth.

Fuel to the flames.

Who around here thinks that the USA is racist?

An Argentinean perspective,
I was born and raised in Buenos Aires, Argentina. My family's been here (like 95% of this city's population) for more or less 100 years since it came from Europe. In my case: Ashkenazi Jewish (german-ukraynian) and french. When my ancestors were prosecuted or starving in the European subcontinent (of Eurasiafrica) they could either take the ship to Canada, Ellis Island, Rio or Buenos Aires... to the New World. I think its easier to understand THE AMERICAS as the whole NEW WORLD if we take aside the equatorial and tropical regions....
ONE IMPORTANT THING: WHICH IS THE ''WHITEST'' (most european) WEST OF THE ATLANTIC?
Canada? USA? No.... it's Uruguay.
The issue is that European or white is not the same as Anglo Saxon... and in the case of the USA, its a matter of languaje, as MOST white ''anglo-saxon`` Americans... are genetically more continental european (German, Swiss, Italian, French, Spanish) than Brits.... It's even more tricky when we consider that Irishpeople are not considered anglosaxon in Europe, but pass as so in America.

I consider that anglos-saxon only being a linguistic/cultural reference to England. Like hispanic is a linguistic/cultural reference to Spain and "latin/latino" a cultural reference to Italy, Spain Portugal or France.
These linguistic/cultural references were born in Europe and were transposed to America... Were the people doesn't seems to understand what these words mean...

Sardo = Sardinia, Italy

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For me I'm an African-American with Haitian descent, I don't consider myself neither of the subject, but have heard people who I would consider Latino nor Hispanic call themselves such(Portugese, Brazilians and some Haitian and Quebecois. And some who don't from of all places Spain( like the Catalans, so-called "Celtic"[ha, Ha!]Galicians and Asturians and the Basque [who's language and most of thier culture is much older than latin or anything in Iberia/Spain.] What is the deal with that? What do you guys think especially with the "Celtic" Galician/Asturians and the Basque especially? Is it something nationalistic or what?